Theos-Talk Archives (March 2009 Message tt00074)

Yes, but Morten one didn't expect the animosity from leaders ofÂthe TS
Cass




________________________________
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 3 March, 2009 5:19:05 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: C.W. Leadbeater, the greatest occultist-saint of all times


Dear friends

My views are:

I would like to add a few words from H. P. Blavatsky's hand in relation to the debate.

Please read them carefully... And I would like you Anand to tell me and others if you find something wrong with these words in the below by H. P. Blavatsky. Do you?

"WHY, THEN, IS THERE SO MUCH PREJUDICE AGAINST THE T. S.?

ENQUIRER. If Theosophy is even half of what you say, why should there exist such a terrible ill-feeling against it? This is even more of a problem than anything else.

THEOSOPHIST. It is; but you must bear in mind how many powerful adversaries we have aroused ever since the formation of our Society. As I just said, if the Theosophical movement were one of those numerous modern crazes, as harmless at the end as they are evanescent, it would be simply laughed atâ as it is now by those who still do not understand its real purport â and left severely alone. But it is nothing of the kind. Intrinsically, Theosophy is the most serious movement of this age; and one, moreover, which threatens the very life of most of the time-honoured humbugs, prejudices, and social evils of the day â those evils which fatten and make happy the upper ten and their imitators and sycophants, the wealthy dozens of the middle classes, while they positively crush and starve out of existence the millions of the poor. Think of this, and you will easily understand the reason of such a relentless persecution by those others who, more observant and
 perspicacious, do see the true nature of Theosophy, and therefore dread it.

ENQUIRER. Do you mean to tell me that it is because a few have understood what Theosophy leads to, that they try to crush the movement? But if Theosophy leads only to good, surely you cannot be prepared to utter such a terrible accusation of perfidious heartlessness and treachery even against those few?

THEOSOPHIST. I am so prepared, on the contrary. I do not call the enemies we have had to battle with during the first nine or ten years of the Society's existence either powerful or "dangerous"; but only those who have arisen against us in the last three or four years. And these neither speak, write nor preach against Theosophy, but work in silence and behind the backs of the foolish puppets who act as their visible marionnettes. Yet, if invisible to most of the members of our Society, they are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society. But they must remain for certain reasons unnamed at present.

ENQUIRER. And are they known to many of you, or to yourself alone?

THEOSOPHIST. I never said I knew them. I may or may not know themâ but I know of them, and this is sufficient; and I defy them to do their worst. They may achieve great mischief and throw confusion into our ranks, especially among the faint-hearted, and those who can judge only by appearances. They will not crush the Society, do what they may. Apart from these truly dangerous enemies â "dangerous," however, only to those Theosophists who are unworthy of the name, and whose place is rather outside than within the T. S.â the number of our opponents is more than considerable.

ENQUIRER. Can you name these, at least, if you will not speak of the others?

THEOSOPHIST. Of course I can. We have to contend against (1) the hatred of the Spiritualists, American, English, and French; (2) the constant opposition of the clergy of all denominations; (3) especially the relentless hatred and persecution of the missionaries in India; (4) this led to the famous and infamous attack on our Theosophical Society by the Society for Psychical Research, an attack which was stirred up by a regular conspiracy organized by the missionaries in India. Lastly, we must count the defection of various prominent (?) members, for reasons I have already explained, all of whom have contributed their utmost to increase the prejudice against us. "

- - -
"ENQUIRER. But if the Masters exist, why don't they come out before all men and refute once for all the many charges which are made against Mdme. Blavatsky and the Society?

THEOSOPHIST. What charges?

ENQUIRER. That they do not exist, and that she has invented them. That they are men of straw, "Mahatmas of muslin and bladders." Does not all this injure her reputation?

THEOSOPHIST. In what way can such an accusation injure her in reality? Did she ever make money on their presumed existence, or derive benefit, or fame, therefrom? I answer that she has gained only insults, abuse, and calumnies, which would have been very painful had she not learned long ago to remain perfectly indifferent to such false charges. For what does it amount to, after all? Why, to an implied compliment, which, if the fools, her accusers, were not carried away by their blind hatred, they would have thought twice before uttering. To say that she has invented the Masters comes to this: She must have invented every bit of philosophy that has ever been given out in Theosophical literature. She must be the author of the letters from which "Esoteric Buddhism" was written; the sole inventor of every tenet found in the "Secret Doctrine," which, if the world were just, would be recognised as supplying many of the missing links of science, as will be
 discovered a hundred years hence. By saying what they do, they are also giving her the credit of being far cleverer than the hundreds of men, (many very clever and not a few scientific men,) who believe in what she saysâinasmuch as she must have fooled them all! If they speak the truth, then she must be several Mahatmas rolled into one like a nest of Chinese boxes; since among the so-called "Mahatma letters" are many in totally different and distinct styles, all of which her accusers declare that she has written.

ENQUIRER. It is just what they say. But is it not very painful to her to be publicly denounced as "the most accomplished impostor of the age, whose name deserves to pass to posterity," as is done in the Report of the "Society for Psychical Research"?

THEOSOPHIST. It might be painful if it were true, or came from people less rabidly materialistic and prejudiced. As it is, personally she treats the whole matter with contempt, while the Mahatmas simply laugh at it. In truth, it is the greatest compliment that could be paid to her. I say so, again.

ENQUIRER. But her enemies claim to have proved their case.

THEOSOPHIST. Aye, it is easy enough to make such a claim when you have constituted yourself judge, jury, and prosecuting counsel at once, as they did. But who, except their direct followers and our enemies, believe in it? "

http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm

- - -

Now you tell me, whether since H. P. Blavatsky died, the TS or even the theosophical cause as such have'nt experienced any attacks or not?

What attacks deliberate or perhaps unconsciouly have there been on HPB's teachings? And were they justified or not?

This is what those who so bluntly and openly dare to call themselves Himalayan Masters and who debunk H. P. Blavatsky aught to consider!

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: C.W. Leadbeater, the greatest occultist-saint of all times

Geez Anand, even if according to your opinion these letters were materialized by HPB she didn't materialize a blank sheet of paper. If HPB wrote Isis and SD unaided then we should be worshipping at her feet because somebody bloodywell wrote them, Blavatsky continually stated that she was only PASSING ON and not the ORIGINATOR of these ANCIENT EASTERN TEACHINGS - WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU GET? She in all humility admitted that the works was not hers!!! 
Are you suggesting that Blavatsky initiated these teachings in order that Leadbeater et al would come along and correct them - and der if this was the case - why go through HPB at all - why not go to whoever you believe were the true theosophists. 
Your power of logic leaves much to be questioned

Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Anand <AnandGholap@ gmail.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, 1 March, 2009 7:48:00 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: C.W. Leadbeater, the greatest occultist-saint of all times

Daniel,
I think you need to correct your views. 
First of all you are assuming that so called Mahatma Letters were
written by Mahatmas. I wrote on this subject earlier and explained why
these letters are not as authentic as believed. 
We know most Mahatma Letters were materialized by Blavatsky, according
to her own admission. And we also know that contents of the letter
depended on chela's own development. 
That means you can not take statements from Mahatma Letters to support
Blavatsky or her teaching, as letters were materialized by herself.
If you do, it will be like saying "Blavatsky was right because she
said she was right"
You consider Blavatsky's writing as the source of Theosophy. This is
another delusion. Theosophical principles existed for thousands of
years in the East and the West and Blavatsky draws from them. You can
note her frequent references of ancient writings. 
You wrote
"But my point here is that they (later messengers) built on her
(Blavatsky's) original foundation, they followed or tried to follow or
at least said they tried to follow in her footsteps."
Although in humility later messengers might given more credit to
Blavatsky, the fact is Besant and Leadbeater wrote what they
themselves experienced and investigated with their own clairvoyance.
And Leadbeater himself disagrees with Blavatsky on some important
points. Besant and Leadbeater were not disciples of Blavatsky, they
were disciples of Mahatmas.
I don't think writings of later messengers depended on Blavatsky's
writing. Later writing should be considered as product of independent
investigations by later occultists.

Best
Anand Gholap

--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "danielhcaldwell"
<danielhcaldwell@ ...> wrote:
>
> I would like to quote what Jerry H.E. wrote years ago on theos-l:
> 
> "...we tried to promote a historically based general definition of 
> [Theosophical] source material that focuses upon the period before 
> the splits [in the Theosophical Society], when this material
> was being given out for the first time. Therefore, this period is 
> common history for everybody [i.e., for Theosophical students]".
> 
> Notice Jerry's words:
> 
> "...when this material was being given out for THE FIRST TIME". caps 
> added
> 
> It was H.P. Blavatsky who showed up on the public scene in late 1874 
> and 1875 in America and started the process of giving out the "source 
> material" which she said emanated from her Lodge, from her Masters. 
> 
> In July, 1875, when she wrote her "first occult shot" Olcott knew 
> virtually nothing about the "source teachings" except what HPB had 
> started to give him. 
> 
> Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Chatterji, Holloway, 
> Leadbeater, Besant and others had not even meet HPB at this time! 
> 
> Each in turn had a fateful day when they heard of and then met HPB. 
> 
> She was the SOURCE, the channel through which each of them obtained 
> their initial knowledge and understanding of Theosophy and the 
> Masters. 
> 
> Sinnett himself readily admits this in one of his books "The Early 
> Days of Theosophy":
> 
> "Madame Blavatsky is the CENTRAL FIGURE to be considered. She was THE 
> ONE PERSON who knew of her own knowledge, that The Brothers, ÃÂÂ as she
> called them in those days ÃÂÂ were Beings, human in aspect, of flesh
> and blood, for she had been for a time in company with two of them in
> Tibet. She knew they had dazzling powers in dealing with the affairs
> of the world. She herself had faculties of a super-physical order
> that kept her in touch with them wherever she might be. She knew she
> had a mission to fulfil which had for the moment assumed the shape of
> the Theosophical Society. She must have been conscious of possessing
> wonderful powers the exercise of which was under restriction, to
> which she submitted in devotion to the great Brother whom she
> regarded as her own Master, in a pre-eminent degree. ÃÂÂ[page 17] caps 
> added.
> 
> Relevant to keep in mind is what HPB herself wrote in 1877 in her 
> very first book ISIS UNVEILED. She told her readers about these 
> Adepts and her role in giving out the fundamentals of Theosophy as 
> follows: 
> 
> ". . .we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such 
> mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly 
> designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we 
> lent a ready ear." p. vi 
> 
> "The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat 
> intimate acquaintance with Eastern adepts and study of their 
> science." p. v 
> 
> Moving on....
> 
> And during the 16 and 1/2 years of her public work, HPB was 
> constantly giving out these "source teachings" of Theosophy. 
> 
> And if, for example, William Judge or C.W. Leadbeater had never become
> a Theosophist, we would still have Theosophy as given by HPB in the 
> 10,000 plus pages of her writings as well as all the extant letters 
> of the Masters.
> 
> If Sinnett or Besant had never come into contact with HPB or if they 
> had become students of Theosophy but had never written a word on the
> subject, we would still have "the source teachings" as given through
> HPB. 
> 
> Historically speaking therefore, HPB was the SOURCE, i.e. "the point 
> at which something springs into being", for Theosophy as we know it 
> in modern times.
> 
> HPB came FIRST; each of the individuals named above came LATER. 
> 
> Now I am not saying that Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, 
> Leadbeater Besant and others may not have made contributions to the 
> Theosophical work that HPB had originally started. They may have....
> 
> But my point here is that they built on her original foundation, they 
> followed or tried to follow or at least said they tried to follow in 
> her footsteps.
> 
> But had none of these individuals ever written any thing on 
> Theosophy, the "source teachings" as given by HPB would still be 
> available.
> 
> Notice again that Jerry HE writes: "...we tried to promote a 
> historically based general definition of source material that focuses 
> upon the period BEFORE [caps added] the splits [occurred in the 
> Theosophical Society].... ]
> 
> When did the splits occur? One split that Jerry HE is probably 
> referring to is the serious split between Besant and Judge. 
> 
> But there was a "split" as early as 1886 when A.P. Sinnett sought 
> communication with the Masters through a SOURCE other than HPB. 
> 
> Originally Sinnett was put into contact VIA HPB with the Masters 
> through letters beginning in Oct. 1880. 
> 
> But in 1884, he started to "resent" some of what the Masters were 
> telling him in their letters. And he began to have doubts about HPB 
> and sought in 1886 to gain access to the Masters through Maude 
> Trevers whom he hypnotised. 
> 
> Actually Sinnett had tried this very same thing (hypnosis) in the 
> summer of 1884 with Laura Holloway.
> 
> Sinnett's seeking for a source to the Masters OTHER THAN through HPB, 
> lead finally to that famous K.H. letter to Colonel Olcott in August, 
> 1888. (See Letter 19 in "The Letters of the Masters of the 
> Wisdom*First Series".)
> 
> Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Leadbeater, Besant AND 
> OTHERS may have made valuable contributions to Theosophy BUT whatever 
> they accomplished (or did not accomplish) was built upon the 
> foundation of "source teachings" FIRST given by H.P. Blavatsky.
> 
> And when the serious split between Judge on one side and 
> Besant/Olcott on the other side started and culminated in 1893-1995, 
> BOTH SIDES claimed contact with the Masters and the deceased HPB. 
> Then the Theosophical Society was splintered. 
> 
> Who was in the right and who was in the wrong is not easy to 
> determine.
> 
> But I have file folders of letters from serious Theosophy students 
> giving their differing views. Some believe Besant and Olcott fell by 
> the wayside and Judge remained faithful to the Masters. Others 
> believe Judge fell by the wayside as well as Olcott and Besant. 
> Others say Judge failed but Besant continued the orginal tradition. 
> etc. etc.
> 
> On Theos-Talk in the last few years we have seen various 
> correspondents take different sides and views. Frank R., Anand G., 
> Dallas T., Nigel C. and others have voiced their differing views.
> Now Govert has posted some material giving even another view!
> 
> I believe HPB foretold this split that occurred within a few years 
> after her death in her Letter to the Fifth Annual Convention of the 
> American Section of the T.S just before she died. See the very bottom 
> of p. 171, the full page 172 and ending on p. 173 of HPB's Collected 
> Writings, Vol. 13.
> 
> Going back to what Jerry H.E. wrote: "Therefore, this period [before 
> the splits] is common history for everybody."
> 
> I would amend this to read: 
> 
> Therefore, this period BEFORE HPB died SHOULD BE common history for 
> everybody. 
> 
> Again summarising the above:
> 
> HPB was the first to come on the public stage and give the source 
> teachings of Theosophy in 10,000 + pages of writings plus the letters 
> of the Masters given out during HPB's life. 
> 
> The Theosophists I have mentioned above and others such as Tingley, 
> de Purucker, Bailey, etc. came on the scene sometime after HPB. They 
> may have all been sincere, truth seeking individuals and all may have 
> made to a greater or lesser degree various contributions (literary or 
> otherwise) to HPB's work, but especially after HPB's death, claims 
> and counter claims proliferated. 
> 
> For a listing of more of the claims and counterclaims, see:
> 
> http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ moderntheosophy. htm#Endnote
> 
> But Theosophical students should have in HPB's claims and teachings a 
> COMMON SOURCE to focus on, regardless of the truth and validity of 
> the secondary "sources" and later claims of some of HPB's students or 
> later followers or claimants after HPB died.
> 
> Now, I am not implying or saying that there were no contacts with the 
> Masters after HPB's death. After her death and even today other 
> agents MAY have come forth. That is, genuine contacts from HPB's 
> Masters. 
> 
> Unfortunately, you cannot get a room of serious Theosophy/Blavatsky 
> students from diverse Theosophical backgrounds to agree on who that 
> person or agent was or is!
> 
> That is a fact that should make a reflective and thoughtful person 
> pause and ponder. 
> 
> I suggest especially to new students and inquirers that they would be 
> wise to focus [at least initially] on the writings of HPB and the 
> letters of the Masters which from the perspective I have been 
> outlining above are the SOURCE Teachings of modern day Theosophy. 
> 
> Here is a huge body of material that contains more than enough food 
> for thought for serious inquirers, seekers and new Theosophists.
> 
> I will continue this line of thought in subsequent postings.
> 
> Daniel Caldwell
> http://hpb.cc
>

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