Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00210)

I agree.




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 7:34 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky & Krishnamurti


  Dear Morten,

  Thanks for digging up this quote:

  "I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity."

  I think this is very perceptive and to be pondered. I have no problem with the TS studying and trying to understand K and making his teachings available. It has to be done though within an overarching theosophical interpretive framework and not on Krishanmurti's own terms, which can be shown, through comparative research, to be defective, even dangerous. Therefore I have to oppose any of the moves by theosophists to give him preferential treatment and to promote the idea to take K on his own terms. 

  Govert 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 3:44 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky & Krishnamurti

  Dear Govert

  My views are:

  Thanks for your answer.

  Yes. I understand why you disagree.
  My formulation was clumsy. - Let be have another go at it.

  a) Yes Avatars do arrive. We agree.
  b) No. Avatars will never be promoted - in the same manner as - J. Krishnamurti was.
  An Avatar letting himself being "discovered" by a alleged Phaedophile, named C. W. Leadbeater. And then letting himself be announced as the coming one in a Christian-like manner with - Christian - apostles and all. And remember, that C. W. Leadbeaters teaching in certain respects already at that time were breading the thoughts of Spiritism (as far as I remember one being his; Invisible Helpers), which H. P. Blavatsky and Master was against.
  c) Avatars, Are not arriving seeking to create an emotional creed. They arrive seeking to uphold the wisdom teachings of all ages past. J. Krishnamurti did not do this, but rejected more than he supported the Master-Chela teaching, which had been present for centuries on the planet. The same on comparative studying.

  And we have Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932

  "I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest.... 

  In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
  " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say" 
  http://books.google.com/books?id=Tq8aS-ZDu_IC&pg=RA2-PA379&lpg=RA2-PA379&dq=%22Star+Bulletin%22+1931+Krishnamurti&source=web&ots=StjngNWK0k&sig=yBGu2frkW1eUSqpsDYFDftGSKe4#PRA2-PA379,M1

  Why did J. Krishnamurti accept creating so many obstacles to the Seekers after Truth - who were not Seekers after a creed? - And not to talk about the requirements of people being members of the Order of the Star in the East
  if they wanted TS membership. No wonder a number of Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.

  An Avatar - hampering - the promotion of comparative studing, cannot be said to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past. And no Universal Brotherhood can be created from such an activity.

  d)
  The fact that he allowed himself to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at least 4 years if not for 18 years or more without really counter-acting it - aught to tell you something. 

  J. Krishnamurti said:
  "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." 
  http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php (The seventh International Camp of the Order of the Star
  held at Ommen, Holland, August 6th, 1928)

  I think it speak for it self. I bet CWL loved that part with the ceremonials and paraphernalia etc. :-)
  He said this while Annie Besant ("mother") was running TS while - at the same time - being a staunch politician.

  And not to talk about the requirements of people being members of the Order of the Star in the East; (the new idea seeking to disintegrate TS - replanting it with its own creed - and are seemingly still seeking to do so by the aid of the Burnier camp) if they wanted TS membership. No wonder a number of Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.

  e)

  J. Krishnamurti's speech dissolving The Order of The Star in the East: 
  "Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path."
  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/star.htm

  An Avatar rejecting the promotion of comparative studies, cannot be said to be in accordance with the wisdom teachings of all ages past.

  Here are some quite telling HPB quotes opposing the J. Krishnamurti scheme and present day scheme.

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy:
  "Does the Spiritualist accept the verdict and act on the conclusion? Verily, no. He refuses to organize." (p. 32)

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about the T.S.:
  "A very poor specimen, indeed, as at present, and, until carefully sifted and reorganized, no better than all others. Remember, however, that human nature is the same in the Theosophical Society as out of it. Its members are no saints: they are at best sinners trying to do better, and liable to fall back owing to personal weakness." .... " Besides which, it is in a chaotic condition, and as unjustly unpopular as is no other body. What wonder, then, that those members who fail to carry out its ideal should turn, after leaving the Society, for sympathetic protection to our enemies, and pour all their gall and bitterness into their too willing ears! Knowing that they will find support, sympathy, and ready credence for every accusation, however absurd, that it may please them to launch against the Theosophical Society, they hasten to do so, and vent their wrath on the innocent looking-glass, which reflected too faithfully their faces. People never forgive those whom they have wronged. " (p. 256)

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
  "I do not call the enemies we have had to battle with during the first nine or ten years of the Society's existence either powerful or "dangerous"; but only those who have arisen against us in the last three or four years. And these neither speak, write nor preach against Theosophy, but work in silence and behind the backs of the foolish puppets who act as their visible marionnettes. Yet, if invisible to most of the members of our Society, they are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society. But they must remain for certain reasons unnamed at present. "
  .......

  "I never said I knew them. I may or may not know themâ but I know of them, and this is sufficient; and I defy them to do their worst. They may achieve great mischief and throw confusion into our ranks, especially among the faint-hearted, and those who can judge only by appearances. They will not crush the Society, do what they may. Apart from these truly dangerous enemies â "dangerous," however, only to those Theosophists who are unworthy of the name, and whose place is rather outside than within the T. S.â the number of our opponents is more than considerable. " (p. 272)

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy about our enemies!:
  "We have to contend against (1) the hatred of the Spiritualists, American, English, and French; (2) the constant opposition of the clergy of all denominations; (3) especially the relentless hatred and persecution of the missionaries in India; (4) this led to the famous and infamous attack on our Theosophical Society by the Society for Psychical Research, an attack which was stirred up by a regular conspiracy organized by the missionaries in India. Lastly, we must count the defection of various prominent (?) members, for reasons I have already explained, all of whom have contributed their utmost to increase the prejudice against us. " (p. 274)

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy 
  "Our enemies profit to this day by our mistake. The most recent book directed against our teachings is alleged to have been written by an Adept of twenty years' standing. Now, it is a palpable lie. We know the amanuensis and his inspirers (as he is himself too ignorant to have written anything of the sort). These "inspirers" are living persons, revengeful and unscrupulous in proportion to their intellectual powers; and these bogus Adepts are not one, but several. The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against Theosophy and its teachings." (...p. 302)

  H. P. Blavatsky in The Key to Theosophy 
  "Many Branches of the Society have been formed in various parts of the world, and new ones are constantly being organized. Each branch frames its own bye-laws and manages its own local business without interference from Head-quarters; provided only that the fundamental rules of the Society are not violated. " (...p. 320)

  f)

  AN APPRECIATION OF C. W. LEADBEATER By Geoffrey Hodson
  "As I have elsewhere written, I attended several of the Star Camps in Holland and
  was present when there was evidence of remarkable, if brief, supernormal
  manifestations. On more than one occasion some two thousand people from many
  parts of the world were gathered at Ommen to hear Krishnamurti. Each evening, all
  were seated in concentric circles round a large camp fire. Krishnamurti would arrive,
  take his place for a time, and then rise and apply a torch to the camp fire. As the
  flames arose against the evening sky he would chant a mantram to the god Agni, and
  return to his seat. Thereafter he would begin to speak, and on more than one occasion
  a noticeable change took place in him. His voice altered and his hitherto rather
  iconoclastic utterances gave way to a wonderful tenderness of expression and thought
  which induced in those present an elevation of consciousness. The Talks were
  followed by prolonged meditative silences. Many of those present, myself among
  them, bore testimony to the sense of divine peace which had descended, to a
  realization of the Presence of the Lord, and to an assurance that the prophecy had
  begun to be fulfilled.
  These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so
  marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of the
  Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve
  the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard
  Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had
  actually occurred. Even now when he is speaking, with others I discern a spiritual
  influence emanating from him, as if a great Being were still using him as a vehicle.
  This, however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the original prophecy. "
  www.theosophical.org/resources/articles/AppreciationofCWL.pdf (written around 1965)Now when G. Hodson tells us, that Krishnamurti himself...."changed the Objects of the Order of the
  Star in the East" so that they said that he, J. Krishnamurti himself was the Avatar or overshadowed Avatar, tells us all something. - Later J. Krishnamurti appearntly regretted this and dissolved the Order. A strange behaviour coming from an Avatar. Indeed strange.

  - - -

  My primary aim is that TS Adyar and perhaps also other branches of theosophy will - at long last seek to come clean on these issue, which I raise in the above.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:03 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky & Krishnamurti

  Dear Morten,

  Thanks for your thoughts on the Oliveira article. Some comments:

  Morten: Theosophical teachings never promotes the doctrine of an Avatar in the flesh,
  predicting the flesh whiel the await for the spÃirit of the Avatar to arrive.
  Avatars never arrive like that, even if they want people to believe it.
  This aspect of the above teaching by CWL and J. Krishnamurti is and was not theosophical to promote. 
  Theosophical teaching rather teaches about the Avatar within each individal.

  GS: Don't agree and will let HPB speak:

  HPB: AvatÃra (Sk.). Divine incarnation. The descent of a god or some exalted Being, who has progressed beyond the necessity of Rebirths, into the body of a simple mortal. Krishna was an avatar of Vishnu. The Dalai Lama is regarded as an avatar of Avalokiteswara, and the Teschu Lama as one of Tson-kha-pa, or Amitabha., There are two kinds of avatars: those born from woman, and the parentless, the anupapÃdaka.

  GS: I do completely agree with this:

  Morten: There are similarites between J. Krishnamurti's and HPB's teachings no doubt. There are also GREAT and HUGE differences, which are just as important to raise peoples awareness about.

  Best 

  Govert

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 3:12 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky & Krishnamurti

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