Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00132)

I could be wrong but I think 'hence' can also mean 'from that date'- dictionary says 'from here' - from now? So we don't know if Master was referring to here or now.
Â
Cass

--- On Thu, 5/2/09, Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online.de> wrote:


From: Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online.de>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Received: Thursday, 5 February, 2009, 9:05 PM






I cannt see, what you mean.
To me the term "hence" means "from now on" and not back into the past.

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race

Just reread your post - do you think KH was referring to 16,000 years from 1898 when he wrote this. I get the idea that we should subtract 10,000 from 16,000 to get a date for the next one.????

Cass

--- On Thu, 5/2/09, Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online. de> wrote:

From: Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online. de>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Received: Thursday, 5 February, 2009, 2:29 AM

Hi Cass,
you have intermixed it. Poseidonis was 10,000 years ago. Our racial fate, the turning point is in the future in 16,000 years, cp. SD II:330:

"He knows nothing, through exact Science, of what took place nearly 10,000 years ago; yet he may find consolation in the knowledge or -- if he so prefers -- speculation on the fate of every one of the modern nations he knows of -- about 16,000 years hence." 
http://www.sacred- texts.com/ the/sd/sd2- 1-19.htm

So as HPB otherwise states that this turning point or racial cataclysm takes place in the middle of each 4th sub-race, it is quite clear that Tingley, Fussell and de Purucker have the right interpretation of HPB's statements, while Besant, Leadbeater and Jinarajadasa have the wrong interpretation.

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race

Frank,
I think that it is 16000 years from the sinking of Poseidon. This subject should be explored rather than argued on who is more accurate - I will happily admit I was wrong if I can get to the truth of it.

Cass

--- On Wed, 4/2/09, Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online. de> wrote:

From: Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online. de>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Received: Wednesday, 4 February, 2009, 11:41 AM

Dear Nigel,

in the same way you read HPB you may also read the Holy Bible or the Lotus Sutra or the Bhagavad Gita.
To me you have not quoted her exactly, you just have given the letter, not the spirit.
It is only your mindset that you are under the illusion that HPB wrote what you think.

And you have not explained of which sub-race HPB in your quote speaks.

It seems you have no idea what esotericism is or what a blind is, alsthough HPB explained it several times and although HPB openly stated somewhere in the Secret Doctrine that all numbers and figures concerning cycles are not given openly.

Nowhere said any of HPB's Mahatmas that we are in the 5th sub-race as Besant did.
The reason is that the Mahatmas grasp the teachings they teach.
They know that -as HPB also wrote - that the middle point of the sub-race and their cataclysms come in 16,000 years from now.
That alone is sufficent alone for the thinking part of the theosophists to know in which sub-race we are.

You seem not to consider that there is more knowledge as you have observed so far. That is Hinayana, while HPB served the Mahayana path.

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: nhcareyta 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:10 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race

Dear Frank

You write, "But you are free to have your own interpretation 
of HPB."

Thank you. But I am merely quoting exactly what she has written 
and do not see any "blinds" that you suggest. Moreover the quotes 
from the Mahatmas appear to verify her statements.

Regards
Nigel 

--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Frank,
> my English seems to bad that you understand me.
> I do not need to find another quote of HPB, because your 
interpretation of the quote is wrong.
> Why should I therefore find another quote?
> 
> Obviously, you would like Besant this second quote also in a dead-
letter sense.
> 
> Shall a repeat all arguments I already have written?
> 
> While you give little credence in the writings of de Purucker, it 
seems you give more credence into your own interpretation of HPB.
> 
> Not that it could be not the case that you have more insight into 
the esoteric philosophy than de Purucker, only so far you have 
presented no proof or even hint except your dead-letter 
interpretation.
> 
> Bearing in mind, that we in the meantime had two world-wars, in 
which the question of the race played also a role, and that now 64 of 
the last physical war are gone, from a theosophical point of view it 
seems strange, that the misunderstandings among theosophists continue 
into the 21th century.
> 
> Your argument - in contrast to what I have written before - looks 
fanatic and proud. But you are free to have your own interpretation 
of HPB.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: nhcareyta 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:15 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> 
> 
> Dear Frank
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> For some reason you have introduced Dr Besant, Bishop 
> Leadbeater and Dr Purucker's interpretations.
> 
> I place little credence in much of their writings, but that is 
> largely irrelevant to the point I was offering.
> 
> Again, you write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are 
> before the middle point of the 4th sub-race."
> 
> Madame Blavatsky wrote as quoted, ""But we are in the 
> 5th race, and we have already passed the turning or axial point 
> of our "sub-race cycle."
> 
> There are 7 sub-races. 
> 
> The fourth is the middle or axial sub-race, being between the 
> first and last 3.
> 
> From my understanding, a sub-race cycle is the period and 
> processing of all 7 sub-races. 
> 
> Madame Blavatsky is saying we are passed the middle point 
> of the sub-race cycle. 
> 
> This could indicate we are past the middle point of the fourth 
> sub-race itself or, from my understanding, we are actually 
> past the fourth sub-race altogether and are unfolding and 
> evolving through the fifth of the total sub-race cycle. 
> 
> Whichever, it does not seem to indicate we are before any of 
> these stages.
> 
> It appears we will have to respectfully disagree at this stage, 
> unless you can find a quote from Madame Blavatsky which negates 
> or casts further light on this perspective.
> 
> Thank you again.
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Nigel,
> > no, I will surely not agree as we speak here of two different 
> things.
> > 
> > If you consider what HPB writes before and after your quotation 
> about the calculation of the sub-races, you will be aware that HPB 
> refers to our sub-race cycle within the subrace.
> > So Besant knew nothing about this esoteric blind of HPB and 
> believed in the dead-letter she found in the book.
> > 
> > Below I give one of many possible quotes from Gottfried de 
Purucker 
> about Besant's mistake from his "Studies". In 
> his "Fundamentals, "Dialogues" and "Occult Glossary" other quotes 
can 
> be found, that Besant and Leadbeater made a miscalculation about 
the 
> races.
> > 
> > So considering that HPB used blinds - which is to be expected by 
> the most occult doctrine of the races, the cardinal dogma of the 
> Masters - how trustworthy are then the teachings of Besant and 
> Leadbeater on the races? And how trustworthy are their teachings 
> regarding other topics of which we may not have first-hand 
> information of de Purucker or another messenger of the Masters?
> > 
> > Is this then the "true Theosophy" of which Anand speaks?
> > Frank
> > 
> > http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /soph/sopqa06. htm
> > Sub-Races of the Fifth Root-Race
> > I have been a reader of Theosophical literature for a number of 
> years and have understood from the teachings that we are now in the 
> fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. But I read in Dr. de 
> Purucker's illuminating book, FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ESOTERIC 
> PHILOSOPHY, that this is a mistake; that we have not even reached 
the 
> middle of the fourth Sub-Race; and that earlier teaching has been 
an 
> intentional blind on this point. 
> > 
> > The present condition of the world certainly suggests that we are 
> not a whole sub-race beyond the "acme of materiality. " But if such 
is 
> the case, why was it necessary to withhold this teaching until 
today? 
> And why are we more ready to receive it now than fifty years ago? 
Can 
> anything further be said on this subject? 
> > 
> > The questioner, on the whole, has correctly understood my various 
> references to the matter of the Races. It is, however, erroneous to 
> suppose that the teaching concerning this matter has 
been 'withheld' 
> until today; and, consequently, the above statement suggesting that 
> we are now more ready to receive the teachings than others were 
fifty 
> years ago is likewise a mistake. I would also like to point out 
that 
> the earlier teaching on this matter was not "an intentional blind"; 
> but H. P. B.'s teachings regarding the Races as given in The Secret 
> Doctrine, have not been in all respects properly understood. 
> > 
> > In Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy, on page 239, I have 
> treated of this matter at sufficient length, it seems to me, 
although 
> briefly; and I suggest that the questioner and others who may be 
> interested in the facts, turn to H. P. B.'s The Secret Doctrine and 
> especially to its Volume One, page 610, and ponder over the very 
> clear and definite statements therein made. 
> > 
> > "The acme of materiality in each" Race is always the fourth stage 
> or sub-race "or central point," e.g., the fourth Sub-Race of any 
Root-
> Race. Further, H. P. B. on this page of The Secret Doctrine says 
very 
> clearly that "we are in the mid-point of our Sub-Race of the Fifth 
> Root-Race -- the acme of materiality in each -- therefore the 
animal 
> propensities, though more refined," etc. Now, these words, "the 
acme 
> of materiality in each" solve the problem instantly, because two 
> things are here referred to: the Fifth Root-Race and its "acme of 
> materiality" which is the fourth Sub-Race; and, again, "the mid-
point 
> of our Sub-Race. It should be clear enough to anybody that being at 
> the point where the "acme of materiality" in each is found, this 
> places us therefore at, or nearing the middle point of, the fourth 
> Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. However, as there are always 
cycles 
> within cycles, and smaller cycles again within these, even a fourth 
> sub-race has its upward rises towards a relative intellectual 
> development or a relative spiritual development, and also its 
> descents thereafter. 
> > 
> > Since the discovery of America, we have been on the upward rise 
of 
> a small minor cycle within the fourth Sub-Race; and this accounts 
for 
> the great development in brain-mind intellectuality and for the 
> flowering of material energies which the most myopic of modern 
> individuals can see the signs of around us everywhere. 
> > 
> > To speak more accurately, we are at the present time actually 
> passing through a small fifth subordinate race, forming part of a 
> Family-Race, which in its turn is part of the fourth Sub-Race, 
which 
> is the lowest great sub-race of the Fifth Root-Race. 
> > 
> > Again, as every industrious student of the archaic Wisdom knows 
who 
> has pondered over the statements in H. P. B.'s The Secret Doctrine, 
> every Root-Race, when its time comes, is cut in two in its middle 
> part, i.e., at about the middle point of its fourth Sub-Race, as 
> Atlantis was, and as Lemuria was. Such racial catastrophe obviously 
> has not yet befallen us of the Fifth Root-Race; and the deduction 
is 
> of course immediate and obvious: we have not yet reached the middle 
> point of the fourth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race -- although we 
> are not far from this middle point. 
> > 
> > H. P. B. in The Secret Doctrine furthermore shows that the karmic 
> geologic destiny of Europe -- when the final closing of many racial 
> accounts will take place -- requires some sixteen thousand or more 
> years before that event, a geologic racial catastrophe, reaches its 
> maximum. But meanwhile, "coming events cast their shadows before"; 
> and very serious seismic, tidal, and other catastrophic events will 
> happen to certain European countries between now and the sixteen 
> thousand years period of grace that Europe still has. H. P. B. has 
> alluded to these events on several occasions in her writings, as in 
> The Theosophist in an article later republished in Five Years of 
> Theosophy, and also in articles in her Lucifer, in which places she 
> calls attention to tidal waves and disastrous earthquakes that are 
> already occurring, and clearly pointing to what will come in the 
> future. 
> > 
> > Were we now in the fifth Sub-Race, as some have mistakenly 
> supposed, we should have passed the cutting in two of our Fifth 
Root-
> Race; but this last has not occurred. The conclusion is therefore 
> obvious. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: nhcareyta 
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:40 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Frank
> > 
> > You write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the 
> > middle point of the 4th sub-race."
> > 
> > However Madame Blavatsky writes, "But we are in the 5th race, 
> > and we have already passed the turning or axial point of our 
> > "sub-race cycle."
> > Occult Or Exact Science?
> > [The Theosophist, Vol. VII, No. 79, April, 1886, pp. 422-431]
> > 
> > As the fourth sub-race is the "axial point", it would appear 
> > we are past this.
> > 
> > Would you agree?
> > 
> > Regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Anand wrote:
> > > >Theosophical Society, under Annie Besant, and with it's pure
> > > Theosophy, was a huge success because that time Krishnamurti 
had 
> not
> > > distorted teachings in TS.
> > > 
> > > Besant brought merely exoteric distortions and second-hand 
> > Theosophy, while 
> > > Blavatsky brought first-hand Theosophy.
> > > Besant and Leadbeater taught that we are preparing for the 5th 
> sub-
> > race, 
> > > while the 4th sub-race, which they believed are the German, is 
> soon 
> > dying 
> > > out.
> > > 
> > > This could be the pseudo-theosophical rationale for Besant to 
> drum 
> > for war 
> > > against Germany in The Theosophist in the very smear words the 
> > Masons used 
> > > in 1870 and repeated in 1889 in Paris, as published by Karl 
> Heise, 
> > co-worker 
> > > of Steiner.
> > > 
> > > But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the middle point 
of 
> > the 4th 
> > > sub-race.
> > > 
> > > Could it be that Besant's and Leadbeater's wrong calculation of 
> the 
> > races 
> > > and sub-races led them to racism against innocent Germans?
> > > Members with German origin or German sounding names were 
> persecuted 
> > by them 
> > > under their Antigermanism hype.
> > > 
> > > Individuals persecuted for the only reason that they belong to 
a 
> > wrong race. 
> > > Is that Anand's "pure Theosophy"?
> > > 
> > > Frank
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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