Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00023)

Dear Frank,
my English seems to bad that you understand me.
I do not need to find another quote of HPB, because your interpretation of the quote is wrong.
Why should I therefore find another quote?

Obviously, you would like Besant this second quote also in a dead-letter sense.

Shall a repeat all arguments I already have written?

While you give little credence in the writings of de Purucker, it seems you give more credence into your own interpretation of HPB.

Not that it could be not the case that you have more insight into the esoteric philosophy than de Purucker, only so far you have presented no proof or even hint except your dead-letter interpretation.

Bearing in mind, that we in the meantime had two world-wars, in which the question of the race played also a role, and that now 64 of the last physical war are gone, from a theosophical point of view it seems strange, that the misunderstandings among theosophists continue into the 21th century.

Your argument - in contrast to what I have written before - looks fanatic and proud. But you are free to have your own interpretation of HPB.

Frank


----- Original Message ----- 
From: nhcareyta 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:15 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race


Dear Frank

Thank you for your reply.

For some reason you have introduced Dr Besant, Bishop 
Leadbeater and Dr Purucker's interpretations.

I place little credence in much of their writings, but that is 
largely irrelevant to the point I was offering.

Again, you write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are 
before the middle point of the 4th sub-race."

Madame Blavatsky wrote as quoted, ""But we are in the 
5th race, and we have already passed the turning or axial point 
of our "sub-race cycle."

There are 7 sub-races. 

The fourth is the middle or axial sub-race, being between the 
first and last 3.

>From my understanding, a sub-race cycle is the period and 
processing of all 7 sub-races. 

Madame Blavatsky is saying we are passed the middle point 
of the sub-race cycle. 

This could indicate we are past the middle point of the fourth 
sub-race itself or, from my understanding, we are actually 
past the fourth sub-race altogether and are unfolding and 
evolving through the fifth of the total sub-race cycle. 

Whichever, it does not seem to indicate we are before any of 
these stages.

It appears we will have to respectfully disagree at this stage, 
unless you can find a quote from Madame Blavatsky which negates 
or casts further light on this perspective.

Thank you again.

Regards
Nigel

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Nigel,
> no, I will surely not agree as we speak here of two different 
things.
> 
> If you consider what HPB writes before and after your quotation 
about the calculation of the sub-races, you will be aware that HPB 
refers to our sub-race cycle within the subrace.
> So Besant knew nothing about this esoteric blind of HPB and 
believed in the dead-letter she found in the book.
> 
> Below I give one of many possible quotes from Gottfried de Purucker 
about Besant's mistake from his "Studies". In 
his "Fundamentals, "Dialogues" and "Occult Glossary" other quotes can 
be found, that Besant and Leadbeater made a miscalculation about the 
races.
> 
> So considering that HPB used blinds - which is to be expected by 
the most occult doctrine of the races, the cardinal dogma of the 
Masters - how trustworthy are then the teachings of Besant and 
Leadbeater on the races? And how trustworthy are their teachings 
regarding other topics of which we may not have first-hand 
information of de Purucker or another messenger of the Masters?
> 
> Is this then the "true Theosophy" of which Anand speaks?
> Frank
> 
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/soph/sopqa06.htm
> Sub-Races of the Fifth Root-Race
> I have been a reader of Theosophical literature for a number of 
years and have understood from the teachings that we are now in the 
fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. But I read in Dr. de 
Purucker's illuminating book, FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ESOTERIC 
PHILOSOPHY, that this is a mistake; that we have not even reached the 
middle of the fourth Sub-Race; and that earlier teaching has been an 
intentional blind on this point. 
> 
> The present condition of the world certainly suggests that we are 
not a whole sub-race beyond the "acme of materiality." But if such is 
the case, why was it necessary to withhold this teaching until today? 
And why are we more ready to receive it now than fifty years ago? Can 
anything further be said on this subject? 
> 
> The questioner, on the whole, has correctly understood my various 
references to the matter of the Races. It is, however, erroneous to 
suppose that the teaching concerning this matter has been 'withheld' 
until today; and, consequently, the above statement suggesting that 
we are now more ready to receive the teachings than others were fifty 
years ago is likewise a mistake. I would also like to point out that 
the earlier teaching on this matter was not "an intentional blind"; 
but H. P. B.'s teachings regarding the Races as given in The Secret 
Doctrine, have not been in all respects properly understood. 
> 
> In Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy, on page 239, I have 
treated of this matter at sufficient length, it seems to me, although 
briefly; and I suggest that the questioner and others who may be 
interested in the facts, turn to H. P. B.'s The Secret Doctrine and 
especially to its Volume One, page 610, and ponder over the very 
clear and definite statements therein made. 
> 
> "The acme of materiality in each" Race is always the fourth stage 
or sub-race "or central point," e.g., the fourth Sub-Race of any Root-
Race. Further, H. P. B. on this page of The Secret Doctrine says very 
clearly that "we are in the mid-point of our Sub-Race of the Fifth 
Root-Race -- the acme of materiality in each -- therefore the animal 
propensities, though more refined," etc. Now, these words, "the acme 
of materiality in each" solve the problem instantly, because two 
things are here referred to: the Fifth Root-Race and its "acme of 
materiality" which is the fourth Sub-Race; and, again, "the mid-point 
of our Sub-Race. It should be clear enough to anybody that being at 
the point where the "acme of materiality" in each is found, this 
places us therefore at, or nearing the middle point of, the fourth 
Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. However, as there are always cycles 
within cycles, and smaller cycles again within these, even a fourth 
sub-race has its upward rises towards a relative intellectual 
development or a relative spiritual development, and also its 
descents thereafter. 
> 
> Since the discovery of America, we have been on the upward rise of 
a small minor cycle within the fourth Sub-Race; and this accounts for 
the great development in brain-mind intellectuality and for the 
flowering of material energies which the most myopic of modern 
individuals can see the signs of around us everywhere. 
> 
> To speak more accurately, we are at the present time actually 
passing through a small fifth subordinate race, forming part of a 
Family-Race, which in its turn is part of the fourth Sub-Race, which 
is the lowest great sub-race of the Fifth Root-Race. 
> 
> Again, as every industrious student of the archaic Wisdom knows who 
has pondered over the statements in H. P. B.'s The Secret Doctrine, 
every Root-Race, when its time comes, is cut in two in its middle 
part, i.e., at about the middle point of its fourth Sub-Race, as 
Atlantis was, and as Lemuria was. Such racial catastrophe obviously 
has not yet befallen us of the Fifth Root-Race; and the deduction is 
of course immediate and obvious: we have not yet reached the middle 
point of the fourth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race -- although we 
are not far from this middle point. 
> 
> H. P. B. in The Secret Doctrine furthermore shows that the karmic 
geologic destiny of Europe -- when the final closing of many racial 
accounts will take place -- requires some sixteen thousand or more 
years before that event, a geologic racial catastrophe, reaches its 
maximum. But meanwhile, "coming events cast their shadows before"; 
and very serious seismic, tidal, and other catastrophic events will 
happen to certain European countries between now and the sixteen 
thousand years period of grace that Europe still has. H. P. B. has 
alluded to these events on several occasions in her writings, as in 
The Theosophist in an article later republished in Five Years of 
Theosophy, and also in articles in her Lucifer, in which places she 
calls attention to tidal waves and disastrous earthquakes that are 
already occurring, and clearly pointing to what will come in the 
future. 
> 
> Were we now in the fifth Sub-Race, as some have mistakenly 
supposed, we should have passed the cutting in two of our Fifth Root-
Race; but this last has not occurred. The conclusion is therefore 
obvious. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: nhcareyta 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:40 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> 
> 
> Dear Frank
> 
> You write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the 
> middle point of the 4th sub-race."
> 
> However Madame Blavatsky writes, "But we are in the 5th race, 
> and we have already passed the turning or axial point of our 
> "sub-race cycle."
> Occult Or Exact Science?
> [The Theosophist, Vol. VII, No. 79, April, 1886, pp. 422-431]
> 
> As the fourth sub-race is the "axial point", it would appear 
> we are past this.
> 
> Would you agree?
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anand wrote:
> > >Theosophical Society, under Annie Besant, and with it's pure
> > Theosophy, was a huge success because that time Krishnamurti had 
not
> > distorted teachings in TS.
> > 
> > Besant brought merely exoteric distortions and second-hand 
> Theosophy, while 
> > Blavatsky brought first-hand Theosophy.
> > Besant and Leadbeater taught that we are preparing for the 5th 
sub-
> race, 
> > while the 4th sub-race, which they believed are the German, is 
soon 
> dying 
> > out.
> > 
> > This could be the pseudo-theosophical rationale for Besant to 
drum 
> for war 
> > against Germany in The Theosophist in the very smear words the 
> Masons used 
> > in 1870 and repeated in 1889 in Paris, as published by Karl 
Heise, 
> co-worker 
> > of Steiner.
> > 
> > But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the middle point of 
> the 4th 
> > sub-race.
> > 
> > Could it be that Besant's and Leadbeater's wrong calculation of 
the 
> races 
> > and sub-races led them to racism against innocent Germans?
> > Members with German origin or German sounding names were 
persecuted 
> by them 
> > under their Antigermanism hype.
> > 
> > Individuals persecuted for the only reason that they belong to a 
> wrong race. 
> > Is that Anand's "pure Theosophy"?
> > 
> > Frank
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



 

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