Theos-Talk Archives (January 2009 Message tt00310)

Cass, Morten,
I understand that torch bearer is someone who takes a light, who is visible for the public.
So in this quote HPB refered rather to an outer messenger and she meant that teacher which would appear in 1975, as we know from her, that since Tsong-kha-pa in every last quarter of a centruy such a public propaganda for the truth is done.

But this statement from HPB is quite different from that before with the the 1897 endgame.

Best
Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?


No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. Italics added.

She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer into teacher?

Cass

________________________________
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

No.
You wrote:
"I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would come"

I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me something else.

- - -

And you did not answer my questions.
And I ask myself why.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we also have mini teachers - if you get my point
Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Dear friends and Cass

My views are:

Cass wrote:
"I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would come"

My answer:
I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.

". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place. Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents, and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. Italics added.

My answer:

1.
I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s) arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh as something theosophical.

2.
He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?

If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind the Disclosure Project on Ufology.

3.
Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?

4.
The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of honest theosophists to resign?
Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH and COMPASSION?
I call it a disgrace!

5.
Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to predict the future than Annie Besant's ?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such a World Teacher would not have required any education from those lesser evolved.
I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon everything that supported the second christ claim.

Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Yes. - Let me rephrase it:
And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus
Cass

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Dear Pedro and friends

My views are:

Pedro asked:
"Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to 
those interested to attend?"

My answer and questions:

Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not just simply avoid selling them?
Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are - perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading teachings.

Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say: 
"Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask you: What planet do you come from?

Pedro asked:
"As a matter of fact, why stop at 
Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"

My answer and question:
Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling all kind of books. 

Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of the Society.
You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.

I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything. 

Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries (1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W. Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!

These are some the differences in view Pedro.
I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST.
Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?

- - -
Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.

H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.
And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the following views by H. P. Blavatsky.

H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:

In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a doctrine
diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism
and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]

...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
Wisdom. . . . [374]

. . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
Flesh. . . .[390]

- - -

C.W. XII, p. 501-

(From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.") 

"1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties, its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom. 

"2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship. 

"3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and their Teacher. 

"4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them with the life-stream of Truth. 

"5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury." 

(From the Letter of a Master.)

" ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and 

----------
* "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice of the Silence, p. 49.)
----------

Page 503

includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: - 

"He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "

http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 052.htm

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pedro Oliveira 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@.. .> wrote:

> So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C. 
W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.

Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to 
those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at 
Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?

In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below, 
should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose 
sale may not be allowed to go on?

"The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan 
world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-
eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national features 
and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to 
this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had made 
a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity, self-
exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as 
the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image 
henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as 
representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)

"But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of the 
keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day 
when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now 
Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the 
latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and 
malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo 
JudÃus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred Writings, 
he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate 
the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or 
Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be followed 
secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols of 
nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the 
discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the 
fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the 
series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and 
symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most 
terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and 
religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)

On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the 
freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has 
always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for those 
bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.

Pedro

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