Theos-Talk Archives (January 2009 Message tt00307)

Dear Raquel

Thank you for your words of support and encouragement 
to all seekers after Truth.

Thank you too for posting Erica's talk again. 
I have been away and missed it. 
It is a profound and insightful piece to me too. 

Kindest regards
Nigel




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Raquel Rodríguez <raquel_rpj@...> 
wrote:
>
> Nigel
>  
> Thanks for your kind words 
> I am just an undisciplined shellfish student, that fortunately for 
some reason, has an special sharp eye to intuitively recognize Truth. 
And intuition that I have learn to trust thanks to the untiring work 
of many true theosophist on this forum.
> So sincerely thanks to the common sense and Love For Truth that you 
and many others devote and work for.
>  
> A few weeks ago, when involved on discussions about divisions on 
TS, Erika posted a beautiful statement, that I like to meditate upon 
from time to time and I would now like to recall.
> Keep the link unbroken by Erika Letzerich.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/47636
>  
> Very Best Regards
> 
>  
> Raquel
> 
> 
> --- El dom, 11/1/09, nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> escribió:
> 
> De: nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...>
> Asunto: Theos-World Re: Taking offense, seeking revenge
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Fecha: domingo, 11 enero, 2009 1:40
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Raquel
> 
> Thank you very much for your response.
> 
> Your words are steeped in wisdom to me as you highlight 
> some painful moral dilemmas so well.
> 
> You write, "I have been highly appreciating this didactic labor 
> from some members on this forum and I understand it is 
> necessary to keep doing for the newcomers and I am
> even sorry, this constant tiring work keeps being necessary."
> 
> Thank you for being one of the first to recognise and appreciate 
> the necessity of this "tiring" and very unpleasant task. 
> 
> When I first joined the Adyar Theosophical Society I was guided
> towards Bishop Leadbeater's works and found their romanticism 
> and simplicity appealing. 
> Moreover, many seemingly knowledgeable senior members sang 
> his praises and, based on their trusted recommendation, I avidly
> read his books together with his followers' such as Dr Besant 
> and Geoffrey Hodson.
> 
> After much further research, study and certain experiences, 
> and despite my mind's initial resistance, Bishop Leadbeater's many 
> betrayals and untruths and particularly their extraordinary 
> ramifications became overwhelmingly obvious. 
> 
> It was a painful experience as I had mostly blindly trusted others 
> on matters I could not prove for myself at that time.
> 
> As a Theosophical course producer and group facilitator, I 
> subsequently felt a deep responsibility to make known these 
> facts to those students and seekers who had not done any 
> research or made the comparisons between Bishop Leadbeater's 
> writings and the teachings of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers.
> 
> You write, "Still sometimes it gets more like a war and I think 
> this energy corrupts the main aim, witch is to preserve Truth from 
> contamination. However in this case and again unlikely, war is 
> better than silence."
> 
> Herein lies the eternal dilemma. 
> 
> As budding theosophists, most of us are striving for "Truth" 
> through study, practice and by being as accepting, non-judgemental, 
> compassionate, non-aggressive and indeed non-violent as possible. 
> But can one "preserve Truth" as you say, ie. love, compassion, 
> wisdom, truthfulness, genuine knowledge etc by not confronting 
> misrepresentations and deliberate lies? 
> Through doing nothing are we not actually perpetuating these? 
> The paraphrased saying "evil happens when good men do nothing" 
> seems entirely appropriate in this situation, most especially where 
> new seekers after truth are in their most vulnerable and trusting 
> state. 
> 
> It gives me no pleasure at all to constantly bring these 
> issues to the attention of newcomers. My emotions often feel dirty 
> and unsettled when so doing. 
> However in this special case and very unfortunately, as you say 
> with, to me very insightful words, "war is better than 
> silence."
> At least it is the honest thing to do.
> 
> Thank you again Raquel.
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Raquel Rodríguez 
<raquel_rpj@ ...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Nigel
> >  
> > Your statement, sounds pure common sense to me. 
> > However, I myself would rather desire that the name of leadbeater 
> does not get confused with Theosophy, as I do not think is the same 
> thing. To me it is clearly the seed of perversion of the Truth, 
> generously given from the founders. 
> > Still, his work would be recommended, by members of the society, 
> for reasons far beyond my comprehension, this can not be avoided 
> unlikely. I do not belong to the TS, but I understand it´s 
importance 
> and it´s preservation is necessary.
> > I have been highly appreciating this didactic labor from some 
> members on this forum and I understand it is necessary to keep 
doing 
> for the newcomers and I am even sorry, this constant tiring work 
> keeps being necessary.
> > Still sometimes it gets more like a war and I think this energy 
> corrupts the main aim, witch is to preserve Truth from 
contamination. 
> However  in this case and again unlikely, war is better than 
silence.
> >  
> > Best Regards and Thank you
> >  
> > Raquel
> > 
> > --- El sáb, 10/1/09, nhcareyta <nhcareyta@ ..> escribió:
> > 
> > De: nhcareyta <nhcareyta@ ..>
> > Asunto: Theos-World Re: Taking offense, seeking revenge
> > Para: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Fecha: sábado, 10 enero, 2009 12:46
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Paul, Morten and All
> > 
> > Morten, your strong views desiring to stop production and sales 
> > of the works of Bishop Leadbeater are well stated. 
> > 
> > Paul, you write, "Taking people's books away from them, even 
> > when I think their books are silly fantasies, goes against my 
grain 
> > after thirty years as a public librarian. Leadbeater and Bailey 
no 
> > worse than a lot of other authors, sad to say."
> > 
> > My position with this highly contentious issue has always been 
one 
> > concerning truth and credibility rather than outright censorship.
> > 
> > It is well recognised by all but blind devotees that Bishop 
> Leadbeater
> > was a pathological liar and sexual deviant. Newcomers need only 
> take 
> > these comments and read through previous theostalk postings via 
> > yahoo's search engine to verify for themselves the veracity of 
this 
> > statement.
> > 
> > Surely the question we must all ask is, in whom do we place our 
> > confidence in matters spiritual and occult, where we feel 
ourselves 
> > in need of direction and support?
> > 
> > If it is well known that a particular author has the credentials 
of 
> > Bishop Leadbeater, a spiritual organization publishing and 
> promoting 
> > his works has a bounden duty to inform its visitors and members 
of 
> > the facts surrounding this man. 
> > 
> > From my perspective, to not so do constitutes a gross violation 
of 
> > truth and trust. 
> > 
> > To my knowledge, Dr Besant, Alice Bailey, George Arundale and 
> > Sri Ram were neither pathological liars nor sexual deviants, 
> although 
> > some of these and others were certainly "parasitical and 
> delusional" 
> > to quote Paul. 
> > Indeed they were perhaps only guilty of blindly following some of 
> > Bishop Leadbeater's teachings, with the exception of Sri Ram 
later 
> in 
> > his presidency.
> > 
> > For those who find constant repetition of these issues tiresome 
> > and perhaps non-productive, please note there are numerous 
> > new members to theostalk each week, including those belonging 
> > to the Adyar Theosophical Society. 
> > 
> > They, like myself many years ago, might like to hear about the
> > deceptions and betrayals which followed Madame Blavatsky's 
> > passing.
> > Some in the Adyar Theosophical Society hierarchy might profess 
> > freedom of thought and "No Religion Higher Than Truth" but when 
> > one attempts to compare and criticise the works of Bishop 
> > Leadbeater and his clones strong pressures are often brought to 
> > bear on the transgressor.
> > 
> > Freedom in its purest form permits the liberty to think, speak 
and 
> > write however one chooses within due bounds of legality and 
> > decorum. 
> > It should not be used to suppress debate or to protect a cult's 
> > dogma as often occurred, from my experience, by some leading 
> > members of the Adyar Theosophical Society.
> > 
> > The Society performs an important function in today's world where 
> > prejudice and hardening of attitudes is becoming increasingly 
> > pervasive. 
> > However it can greatly improve its role by simply being more open 
> > and honest about some of its teachers and their teachings. 
> > 
> > Regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "kpauljohnson" 
> <kpauljohnson@ ...> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Morten,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your comments. You know I agree 100% with you about 
> the 
> > > value of the writings of Bailey and Leadbeater compared to 
those 
> of 
> > > HPB. One reason I don't want to belong to the TS is because 
there 
> > > are so many competing versions of reality, the ES, LCC, etc., a 
> > > chaotic cacaphony of voices. But somehow from outside it I can 
> > > accept that it was destined to be what it is, and try to be a 
> > > wellwisher to all factions and individuals in it. Taking 
people's 
> > > books away from them, even when I think their books are silly 
> > > fantasies, goes against my grain after thirty years as a public 
> > > librarian. Leadbeater and Bailey no worse than a lot of other 
> > > authors, sad to say.
> > > 
> > > I'd rather put my energy into recommending other authors like 
> > > Hardinge-Britten, Bunsen, Burton, Aurobindo, who tie 
meaningfully 
> > > into the work of HPB, than worry about discouraging people from 
> > > reading authors whose books are connected with hers in a 
> > parasitical 
> > > and delusional way.
> > > 
> > > You know who I mean :) but let's not denounce them,
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
> <global-
> > > theosophy@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > Dear Paul and friends
> > > > 
> > > > My views are:
> > > > 
> > > > I am happy to read this email.
> > > > 
> > > > My views are, that I myself aught to be better at formulating 
> > > myself, so not to be disrespectuful to those who for some 
reasons 
> > are 
> > > lacking the open compassionate heart, that makes them immune in 
> > > letting themselves being hurt when reading disrespectful words 
> > > written in e-mails.
> > > > I will work on it.
> > > > 
> > > > I will how ever also refer to what H. P. Blavatsky said in 
the 
> > book 
> > > The Key to Theosophy.
> > > > Because it is here I find a great difference between 
> theosophists 
> > > and a great number of those would-be spiritual groups around 
the 
> > > globe.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > H. P. Blavatsky said in the Key to Theosophy:
> > > > 
> > > > "IS IT NECESSARY TO PRAY?
> > > > 
> > > > ENQUIRER. Do you believe in prayer, and do you ever pray?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > THEOSOPHIST. We do not. We ACT, instead of talking."
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm#p66
> > > > 
> > > > The word is emphasized by me and HPB.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > M. Sufilight
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: kpauljohnson 
> > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Theos-World Taking offense, seeking revenge
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Greetings.
> > > > 
> > > > During the runup to the November election, an article 
appeared 
> > in 
> > > > Slate that made me think of Theosophists:
> > > > http://www.slate. com/id/2202303/
> > > > 
> > > > Not just the regular dustups here at theos-talk, but also the 
> > > latest 
> > > > organizational brouhaha in Adyar and Wheston, reminds me that 
> > > > Theosophists are extraordinarily disrespectful to one 
another. 
> > > Not 
> > > > just those in one organization attacking those in another, 
but 
> > > within 
> > > > the Adyar TS even more so. I wonder if people realize just 
what 
> > > kind 
> > > > of impression of the entire movement is created when people 
> > snark 
> > > one 
> > > > another in a public forum like this. Bad enough when mere 
> > members 
> > > do 
> > > > so; far worse when an elected national leader makes a big 
> > display 
> > > of 
> > > > arrogance and aggression.
> > > > 
> > > > Yet at the local level over two decades I never noticed any 
> > > > difficulty whatsoever for Theosophists agreeing to disagree. 
> > > There 
> > > > was always a great diversity of views in any group I ever 
> > > attended, 
> > > > in several states. And no one to my recollection got all 
> > offended 
> > > > that someone else had a different estimation of various 
> > authors. 
> > > But 
> > > > at the national and international levels there seems to be 
far 
> > > less 
> > > > of that live-and-let- live attitude. I renewed my TSA 
> membership 
> > > > after a ten-year lapse in 2008, but was hugely relieved to 
see 
> > it 
> > > > expire last week. 
> > > > 
> > > > The conclusion of the linked article is worth considering 
here. 
> > > > The "empty boats" notion would be well applied to most of the 
> > > > disputes here. Simply to express one's opinion is to risk 
> > > personally 
> > > > offending someone else, even if there was no such intention. 
> > And 
> > > the 
> > > > person thus unintentionally offended will often deliberately 
> > > > retaliate with a personal attack, as if the other person's 
> > > opinion 
> > > > somehow invades their personal space.
> > > > 
> > > > Like any body of literature, the Theosophical writings 
contain 
> > > mixed 
> > > > messages. You can use HPB the same way Christians use the 
> > Bible, 
> > > to 
> > > > justify both sides of every dispute. Pedro's quote indicates 
> > that 
> > > it 
> > > > is untheosophical to take offense at differing views and seek 
> > > revenge 
> > > > on those who express them. Morten's quote indicates that it 
is 
> > a 
> > > > theosophical duty to do so. HPB said both; you choose which 
HPB 
> > > to 
> > > > emulate.
> > > > 
> > > > PJ
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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