Theos-Talk Archives (January 2009 Message tt00294)

Dear Raquel

Thank you very much for your response.

Your words are steeped in wisdom to me as you highlight 
some painful moral dilemmas so well.

You write, "I have been highly appreciating this didactic labor 
from some members on this forum and I understand it is 
necessary to keep doing for the newcomers and I am
even sorry, this constant tiring work keeps being necessary."

Thank you for being one of the first to recognise and appreciate 
the necessity of this "tiring" and very unpleasant task. 

When I first joined the Adyar Theosophical Society I was guided
towards Bishop Leadbeater's works and found their romanticism 
and simplicity appealing. 
Moreover, many seemingly knowledgeable senior members sang 
his praises and, based on their trusted recommendation, I avidly
read his books together with his followers'  such as Dr Besant 
and Geoffrey Hodson.

After much further research, study and certain experiences, 
and despite my mind's initial resistance, Bishop Leadbeater's many 
betrayals and untruths and particularly their extraordinary 
ramifications became overwhelmingly obvious. 

It was a painful experience as I had mostly blindly trusted others 
on matters I could not prove for myself at that time.

As a Theosophical course producer and group facilitator, I 
subsequently felt a deep responsibility to make known these 
facts to those students and seekers who had not done any 
research or made the comparisons between Bishop Leadbeater's 
writings and the teachings of Madame Blavatsky and her teachers.

You write, "Still sometimes it gets more like a war and I think 
this energy corrupts the main aim, witch is to preserve Truth from 
contamination. However  in this case and again unlikely, war is 
better than silence."

Herein lies the eternal dilemma. 

As budding theosophists, most of us are striving for "Truth" 
through study, practice and by being as accepting, non-judgemental, 
compassionate, non-aggressive and indeed non-violent as possible. 
But can one "preserve Truth" as you say, ie. love, compassion, 
wisdom, truthfulness, genuine knowledge etc by not confronting 
misrepresentations and deliberate lies? 
Through doing nothing are we not actually perpetuating these? 
The paraphrased saying "evil happens when good men do nothing" 
seems entirely appropriate in this situation, most especially where 
new seekers after truth are in their most vulnerable and trusting 
state. 

It gives me no pleasure at all to constantly bring these 
issues to the attention of newcomers. My emotions often feel dirty 
and unsettled when so doing. 
However in this special case and very unfortunately, as you say 
with, to me very insightful words, "war is better than 
silence."
At least it is the honest thing to do.

Thank you again Raquel.

Kind regards
Nigel 


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Raquel Rodríguez <raquel_rpj@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> Nigel
>  
> Your statement, sounds pure common sense to me. 
> However, I myself would rather desire that the name of leadbeater 
does not get confused with Theosophy, as I do not think is the same 
thing. To me it is clearly the seed of perversion of the Truth, 
generously given from the founders. 
> Still, his work would be recommended, by members of the society, 
for reasons far beyond my comprehension, this can not be avoided 
unlikely. I do not belong to the TS, but I understand it´s importance 
and it´s preservation is necessary.
> I have been highly appreciating this didactic labor from some 
members on this forum and I understand it is necessary to keep doing 
for the newcomers and I am even sorry, this constant tiring work 
keeps being necessary.
> Still sometimes it gets more like a war and I think this energy 
corrupts the main aim, witch is to preserve Truth from contamination. 
However  in this case and again unlikely, war is better than silence.
>  
> Best Regards and Thank you
>  
> Raquel
> 
> --- El sáb, 10/1/09, nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> escribió:
> 
> De: nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...>
> Asunto: Theos-World Re: Taking offense, seeking revenge
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Fecha: sábado, 10 enero, 2009 12:46
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Paul, Morten and All
> 
> Morten, your strong views desiring to stop production and sales 
> of the works of Bishop Leadbeater are well stated. 
> 
> Paul, you write, "Taking people's books away from them, even 
> when I think their books are silly fantasies, goes against my grain 
> after thirty years as a public librarian. Leadbeater and Bailey no 
> worse than a lot of other authors, sad to say."
> 
> My position with this highly contentious issue has always been one 
> concerning truth and credibility rather than outright censorship.
> 
> It is well recognised by all but blind devotees that Bishop 
Leadbeater
> was a pathological liar and sexual deviant. Newcomers need only 
take 
> these comments and read through previous theostalk postings via 
> yahoo's search engine to verify for themselves the veracity of this 
> statement.
> 
> Surely the question we must all ask is, in whom do we place our 
> confidence in matters spiritual and occult, where we feel ourselves 
> in need of direction and support?
> 
> If it is well known that a particular author has the credentials of 
> Bishop Leadbeater, a spiritual organization publishing and 
promoting 
> his works has a bounden duty to inform its visitors and members of 
> the facts surrounding this man. 
> 
> From my perspective, to not so do constitutes a gross violation of 
> truth and trust. 
> 
> To my knowledge, Dr Besant, Alice Bailey, George Arundale and 
> Sri Ram were neither pathological liars nor sexual deviants, 
although 
> some of these and others were certainly "parasitical and 
delusional" 
> to quote Paul. 
> Indeed they were perhaps only guilty of blindly following some of 
> Bishop Leadbeater's teachings, with the exception of Sri Ram later 
in 
> his presidency.
> 
> For those who find constant repetition of these issues tiresome 
> and perhaps non-productive, please note there are numerous 
> new members to theostalk each week, including those belonging 
> to the Adyar Theosophical Society. 
> 
> They, like myself many years ago, might like to hear about the
> deceptions and betrayals which followed Madame Blavatsky's 
> passing.
> Some in the Adyar Theosophical Society hierarchy might profess 
> freedom of thought and "No Religion Higher Than Truth" but when 
> one attempts to compare and criticise the works of Bishop 
> Leadbeater and his clones strong pressures are often brought to 
> bear on the transgressor.
> 
> Freedom in its purest form permits the liberty to think, speak and 
> write however one chooses within due bounds of legality and 
> decorum. 
> It should not be used to suppress debate or to protect a cult's 
> dogma as often occurred, from my experience, by some leading 
> members of the Adyar Theosophical Society.
> 
> The Society performs an important function in today's world where 
> prejudice and hardening of attitudes is becoming increasingly 
> pervasive. 
> However it can greatly improve its role by simply being more open 
> and honest about some of its teachers and their teachings. 
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "kpauljohnson" 
<kpauljohnson@ ...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Morten,
> > 
> > Thanks for your comments. You know I agree 100% with you about 
the 
> > value of the writings of Bailey and Leadbeater compared to those 
of 
> > HPB. One reason I don't want to belong to the TS is because there 
> > are so many competing versions of reality, the ES, LCC, etc., a 
> > chaotic cacaphony of voices. But somehow from outside it I can 
> > accept that it was destined to be what it is, and try to be a 
> > wellwisher to all factions and individuals in it. Taking people's 
> > books away from them, even when I think their books are silly 
> > fantasies, goes against my grain after thirty years as a public 
> > librarian. Leadbeater and Bailey no worse than a lot of other 
> > authors, sad to say.
> > 
> > I'd rather put my energy into recommending other authors like 
> > Hardinge-Britten, Bunsen, Burton, Aurobindo, who tie meaningfully 
> > into the work of HPB, than worry about discouraging people from 
> > reading authors whose books are connected with hers in a 
> parasitical 
> > and delusional way.
> > 
> > You know who I mean :) but let's not denounce them,
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
<global-
> > theosophy@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > Dear Paul and friends
> > > 
> > > My views are:
> > > 
> > > I am happy to read this email.
> > > 
> > > My views are, that I myself aught to be better at formulating 
> > myself, so not to be disrespectuful to those who for some reasons 
> are 
> > lacking the open compassionate heart, that makes them immune in 
> > letting themselves being hurt when reading disrespectful words 
> > written in e-mails.
> > > I will work on it.
> > > 
> > > I will how ever also refer to what H. P. Blavatsky said in the 
> book 
> > The Key to Theosophy.
> > > Because it is here I find a great difference between 
theosophists 
> > and a great number of those would-be spiritual groups around the 
> > globe.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > H. P. Blavatsky said in the Key to Theosophy:
> > > 
> > > "IS IT NECESSARY TO PRAY?
> > > 
> > > ENQUIRER. Do you believe in prayer, and do you ever pray?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > THEOSOPHIST. We do not. We ACT, instead of talking."
> > > 
> > > http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm#p66
> > > 
> > > The word is emphasized by me and HPB.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > M. Sufilight
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: kpauljohnson 
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:23 PM
> > > Subject: Theos-World Taking offense, seeking revenge
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Greetings.
> > > 
> > > During the runup to the November election, an article appeared 
> in 
> > > Slate that made me think of Theosophists:
> > > http://www.slate. com/id/2202303/
> > > 
> > > Not just the regular dustups here at theos-talk, but also the 
> > latest 
> > > organizational brouhaha in Adyar and Wheston, reminds me that 
> > > Theosophists are extraordinarily disrespectful to one another. 
> > Not 
> > > just those in one organization attacking those in another, but 
> > within 
> > > the Adyar TS even more so. I wonder if people realize just what 
> > kind 
> > > of impression of the entire movement is created when people 
> snark 
> > one 
> > > another in a public forum like this. Bad enough when mere 
> members 
> > do 
> > > so; far worse when an elected national leader makes a big 
> display 
> > of 
> > > arrogance and aggression.
> > > 
> > > Yet at the local level over two decades I never noticed any 
> > > difficulty whatsoever for Theosophists agreeing to disagree. 
> > There 
> > > was always a great diversity of views in any group I ever 
> > attended, 
> > > in several states. And no one to my recollection got all 
> offended 
> > > that someone else had a different estimation of various 
> authors. 
> > But 
> > > at the national and international levels there seems to be far 
> > less 
> > > of that live-and-let- live attitude. I renewed my TSA 
membership 
> > > after a ten-year lapse in 2008, but was hugely relieved to see 
> it 
> > > expire last week. 
> > > 
> > > The conclusion of the linked article is worth considering here. 
> > > The "empty boats" notion would be well applied to most of the 
> > > disputes here. Simply to express one's opinion is to risk 
> > personally 
> > > offending someone else, even if there was no such intention. 
> And 
> > the 
> > > person thus unintentionally offended will often deliberately 
> > > retaliate with a personal attack, as if the other person's 
> > opinion 
> > > somehow invades their personal space.
> > > 
> > > Like any body of literature, the Theosophical writings contain 
> > mixed 
> > > messages. You can use HPB the same way Christians use the 
> Bible, 
> > to 
> > > justify both sides of every dispute. Pedro's quote indicates 
> that 
> > it 
> > > is untheosophical to take offense at differing views and seek 
> > revenge 
> > > on those who express them. Morten's quote indicates that it is 
> a 
> > > theosophical duty to do so. HPB said both; you choose which HPB 
> > to 
> > > emulate.
> > > 
> > > PJ
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
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