Theos-Talk Archives (January 2009 Message tt00009)

Unless there has been a radical change, the Olcott Library carries all the  
Alice Bailey material and the Chicago branches have always had Baileyites  as 
members and had Bailey material present.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 1/2/2009 12:16:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
global-theosophy@stofanet.dk writes:

 
 
 
Dear Joseph and friends

My views are:

1) Thanks. Yes. But  that does not at all explain why they do, what they do, 
and who "they"  actually are in person. And not why "their" policy is like it  
is.

2)
I was rather reffering to the fact that the Alice A. Bailey  books are not 
allowed within any TS branch as far as I know. Whereas C. W.  Leadbeaters are 
more than welcomed. Weird is it not?

And compartive  study between them and H. P. Blavatsky's teachings? Have it 
ever  occured?
When people start thinkin in terms like: You choose your path, we  soon will 
end up with another version of the Spiritists and a pseudo Esoteric  version 
og the Latter Days Saints or similar. Well, that is, if you get my  view.

2 + 3)

4)
Joseph wrote:
Krishnamuti: "People choose  their leaders out of confusion, therefore
the leaders are also  confused."

My answer:
Sure, that will imediately rule all others out  except Kirshnamurti himself - 
as a braging Messiah. 
Sneaky fellow that  Krishnamurti, .....sneaky, very very sneaky.

So no one have ever  compared J. Krishnamurti with any other TS teacher?
I am  amazed.

Yes. The Theosophical Movement by Cooper is worth an  effort.

What is this: "Theosophical materials" (presumably
from the  Adyar organization) - you are reffering to?

Joseph wrote:
"Morten, I  agree very strongly with your view of the TS as an
"investigatory"  organization. A major portion of the issues we deal
with now date back to  the post-Coulomb period when HPB was in Europe
and the ES was formed. As  soon as this direct line to a "higher
authority" was established with the  Europeans, free-thought, and the
investigatory nature of the TS diminished  greatly. It's a funny
phenomenon, slightly alluded to in the Mahatma  Letters (3rd Ed. Letter
16 "Devachan" Pg. 24) regarding the existence of a  pair of undisclosed
Skandhas. These two are associated, according to the  letter, with
"the efficacy of vain rights and ceremonies, in prayers  and
intercession"intercession"<WBR>. Perhaps it is the action of this att
which is mostly responsible for the current state of  affairs."

My answer:
Thanks. I found your words very  interesting.

One aught to ask various TS leaders and leaders from other  theosophical 
branches about this issue. I wonder what they would say, if they  at all dared to 
answer?
----

Joseph wrote:
"I have one other  question. Who are the finest scholars in the
movement today? David Riegle,  Daniel Caldwell, Paul Johnson, Joy
Mills? Where is the output from these  individuals, presumably experts
in Theosophical writing? Who are they  challenging in the world of
science, religion and philosophy?"

My  answer:
Spot on. That was the major point with this e-mail.

The  question will be: When and who will do an effort - together - so that 
the  truth about the Wisdoms teachings will be forwarded, so that the untruth 
might  be shown clearly to the interested reader. - Who has or have the capacity 
to  write a major comprehensive in deept volume - comparing H. P. Blavatsky 
with  Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater, J. Krishnamurti , W. Q. Judge - as well 
as  quite important the major player today: Alice A. Bailey, while forwarding 
the  - theosophical message to our present day audiences - with todays, 
nuclears,  DNA-engineeering, cloning, Disclosure Project, Alien/UFO/CropcirclThe  
question will be: When and who will do an effort - together - so that the  truth 
about the Wisdoms teachings will be forwarded, so that the untruth might  be 
shown clearly to the interested reader. - Who has or have the capacity to  wr

If this is what Master orders, we will have to write it. I  could imagine, 
that this is what Master would find one of important tasks to  do today.
---

We shall know the various authors on their fruits and  not only their books.
Are there at all any sages on this polluted and  scarred Planet? Who?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----  
From: Joseph P. Fulton 
To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com)   
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:56 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: TS  Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Very good question. I have to admit that  sometimes I am quite amazed
at the lack of comparative studies. There  appear to be a number of
things involved, some are philosophical, and some  are quite, how
should we say, prosaic? I'll answer the questions in  order.

1) Please see the site: 
_http://www.questboohttp://www.questhttp://www._ 
(http://www.questbooks.net/aboutquest.cfm#staff)   for contact info and
submission guidelines. 

2) Have you ever done  programming in a branch or study center? You
find out one thing real quick.  You're on your own. The most common
reaction from a programming person  doesn't have anything to do with
what "Wheaton" or "Adyar" wants. Getting  something, i.e. anything
together is the best many can hope for. The  prevailing attitude in
most groups (having heard this enough times as a  Federation Pres.) is
if "Wheaton wants to tell us what to do, they can come  do it themselves".

3) See #2. Headquarters offers study courses to  groups, but I've
never, ever heard of word coming down from HQ saying that  a group
"must" study something. I've even visited groups where I was  kindly
told to leave for asking if they read or studied the SD or ML.  
Running a local group is really a "by the seat of your pants" type  of
thing. I have some wonderful horror stories of times where  speakers
didn't show or someone in the audience tried to make a  virtual
whipping post out of the speaker or their topic.

4) Applying  a style of logic normally ascribed to Nagarjuna, this
answer will apply to  Questions #5, 6, 7, and 8. If a local group is
fortunate enough to have  someone with an Eastern philosophical
background, chances are this type of  debate goes on quite a bit. 
However, in this organization, there seems to  be much less emphasis on
the tradition of inquiry and open examination. The  prevailing
attitude that I observe in most groups is that of your  typical
"believer", not much different than what you would find at a  local
Methodist or Congregationalist church. And, to  paraphrase
Krishnamuti: "People choose their leaders out of confusion,  therefore
the leaders are also confused."

So the answer to Questions  4 - 8 is "yes, all the above are allowed".
The reality is, and mostly for  the reasons given above, is that it
just doesn't happen.

9) I guess  it depends on who you call an "Adyar" writer or teacher. 
Probably the most  well-known piece from the "Adyar" camp is "There is
No Religion Higher Than  Truth" by E.L. Gardner
(_http://hpb.narod.http://hpb.narhtt_ (http://hpb.narod.ru/NoReligion.htm) ). 
 As a member of the British
Section, Gardner lays out a comparison between  various teachings of
HPB and CW Leadbeater. In regard to the teaching of  later
"commentators" perhaps the issue is one of not having anything new  to
say vs. not saying anything. In the Adyar tradition,  virtually
everything is an expansion on the writings of CWL. Now that  being
said, there are some fine exceptions, such as "The Divine Plan"  by
Geoffrey Barborka, and "The Reader's Guide to the Mahatma Letters"  by
Virginia Hanson. One other little known source, and perhaps one  of
the most wonderfully objective pieces I've ever seen was a video  of
the history of the Theosophical Movement, by the late John Cooper.  He
did a brilliant exposition on the various traditions within  the
Theosophical movement without being rude or condescending to  any
particular viewpoint or organization. This is something (IMHO)  that
all of the various organizations within the Theosophical  movement
should have in their libraries.

I would like to analyze the  entire issue of what is taught in the
Theosophical Society from a different  viewpoint. The autonomy of
local groups is pretty absolute. The only  requirement that I am aware
of for groups is that they use "Theosophical  materials" (presumably
from the Adyar organization) in "Theosophy"  classes.

Morten, I agree very strongly with your view of the TS as  an
"investigatory" organization. A major portion of the issues we  deal
with now date back to the post-Coulomb period when HPB was in  Europe
and the ES was formed. As soon as this direct line to a  "higher
authority" was established with the Europeans, free-thought, and  the
investigatory nature of the TS diminished greatly. It's a  funny
phenomenon, slightly alluded to in the Mahatma Letters (3rd Ed.  Letter
16 "Devachan" Pg. 24) regarding the existence of a pair of  undisclosed
Skandhas. These two are associated, according to the letter,  with
"the efficacy of vain rights and ceremonies, in prayers  and
intercession"intercession"<WBR>. Perhaps it is the action of this att
which is mostly responsible for the current state of affairs.

I  have one other question. Who are the finest scholars in the
movement today?  David Riegle, Daniel Caldwell, Paul Johnson, Joy
Mills? Where is the output  from these individuals, presumably experts
in Theosophical writing? Who are  they challenging in the world of
science, religion and  philosophy?

Answer that question, and you'll have the answer to  everything you
asked above. The sad truth is that the Theosophical movement  as a
whole is quite a marginal movement, of little importance to  anyone
today aside from its own participants. Nobody really cares about  the
arguments made on the forums or in the magazines because we just  talk
to ourselves. In a sense, I can get that by going downtown  and
listening to the winos and drug addicts talk to the voices in  their
head. I guess, based on that, there are a number of hobbies one  could
engage in that are more likely to be of benefit to society or  cause
more damage.

Perhaps if we stopped pretending to have all of  the answers and got
back to asking questions, such mundane little issues as  membership,
who is President, and what do we teach may become meaningful  again.

Joe

--- In _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com) ,  
"Morten Nymann Olesen"
<global-theosophy@glo>  wrote:
>
> Dear friends
> 
> My views are:
>  
> A new year is beginning in peoples minds.
> 
> It is now  more than 133 years since the founding of the moderne
visdom teachings -  The Theosophical Society year 1875.
> 
> Status at Conventions  occurs.
> It could be well for members at TS Adyar to consider the  following
questions and words and their value.
> 
> 
>  H.P. Blavatsky said:
> "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate  things at their right
value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears  
> both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision."  H.P.
Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> *** THE QUESTIONS to CONSIDER ***
> 
>  I would appreciate if anyone would care to answer the following
questions,  so that we may be able to know about TS Adyar more fully...
> 
>  1.
> Who decides what kind of books and what books at all are being  sold
at Quest Books?
> Who decides, what Bookshop and what books by  what authors - TS Adyar
promotes?
> What is the present day policy  and why?
> 
> 
> 2.
> Who decides what kind of  lectures are emphasised within TS branches?
> What is the present day  policy and why?
> 
> 3.
> Who decides what books one are  allowed to lecture on?
> Are lectures on comparative study of various  authors allowed freely?
> What is the present day policy and  why?
> 
> 
> 4.
> Are lectures on commparative studies  beteween H. P. Blavatsky vs. C.
W. Leadbeater allowed?
> 
>  5.
> Are lectures on commparative studies beteween H. P. Blavatsky  vs.
Annie Besant allowed?
> 
> 6.
> Are lectures on  commparative studies beteween H. P. Blavatsky vs.
Alice A. Bialey / Lucis  Trust allowed?
> 
> 7.
> Are lectures on commparative  studies beteween H. P. Blavatsky vs.
Radha Burnier allowed?
>  
> 8.
> Are lectures on commparative studies beteween H. P.  Blavatsky vs. J.
Krishnamurti allowed?
> 
> 9.
> Have any  TS Adyar Teacher ever done an effort in the direction of
comparative study  - large or small - between H. P. Blavatsky and all
of the aboves techings?  If not, why not?
> 
> 
> 10.
> In the old H. P.  Blavatsky days - no false claims were permitted to
go unchallanged for a  longer time by H. P. Blavatsky herself. A clear
stance on various new  religious groups was - ALWAYS - given in the
Theosophist and Lucifer etc.  when the situation demanded it. - Is this
what is happening today?
>  
> Are false claims being allowed to flourish within TS today?
>  
> 
> - - -
> 
> If time permit me, I will in a study,  and if no others will, seek to
compare 
> H. P. Blavatsky with all  the above - C. W. Leadbeater. Annie Besant,
J. Krishnamurti, Radha Burnier,  Alice A. Bailey. And I will eventually
publish my study before this my  phycial body reach its death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> M. Sufilight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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