Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
Nov 09, 2008 11:12 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Yes.
But, where is the present day work in other parts of the world, which the Master talked about?
Have some theosophists for years been underestimating the Himalayan Lodge and the Masters?
And:
What were the lecturer Ernest Wood engaged in before he died?
What happened to Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil Crump in their lives?
What happened to all those wise members who went away when CWL was admitted inside again in 1908?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
"There is more of this movement than you have yet had an inkling of, and
the work of the T.S. is linked in with similar work that is secretly
going on in all parts of the world."
Guys&Dolls, this sais it all. It doesn't matter if the TS is burned to smithereens; there is always a backup to be launched immediately under a different name with different people, but with the same noble hearts driving its course.
So puleaaaase quit this dramatic behavior and start preparing the fireworks...
--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 1:11 PM
Dear Anton
About the "dangerous" issue:
What you cannot change will die out. Just like ancient religions from ages past.
Some branches do not bear fruit, and will heva to be released by other branches.
Mahatma Letter 47:
"So let us talk -- for sharp as your voice may be, your heart is warm and you end by saying "Whether you decree that what seems to me right be done or not" you are ever ours faithfully etc. Europe is a large place but the world is bigger yet. The sun of Theosophy must shine for all, not for a part. There is more of this movement than you have yet had an inkling of, and the work of the T.S. is linked in with similar work that is secretly going on in all parts of the world. " (http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-47.htm)
Anton wrote:
"And because members are not nucleuses of brotherhood yet"
My answer:
Do you know that?
Think about what you actually are saying.
Anton wrote:
"Well, the experience with the Esoteric Section shows that it didn't
achieve its goal "
My answer:
Some attempt end up in failure. And some persons fall on the Path.
It seems obvious, that Annie Besant tripped fell, although she also did something good.
Anton wrote:
"Here I agree with Krishnamurti: You can not organize the
Spiritual Path. It is a matter of each individual."
My answer:
But H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters did organise it, in part, and with some success!
Because the real organisation is the Himalyan Lodge or the Master Lodge.
Saying that the Masters are not esoterically organised and dis-organised is rubbish as far as I am concerned. The Path is the Law of Karma. The Law of Karma is organised esoterically.
And no it is NOT as you say "a matter of each individual" alone.
In one sense your are quite right. But in another, it is a clear fact, that we can never walk alone.
Never Anton. The world and the Oneness are there simultaniously. It is a paradox.
Should we abandon Masters teachings and follow J. Krishnamurti and reject all thoughts about chelaship, and learn to use occult powers by our own?
Never. Never ever.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Anton Rozman
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
Dear Morten,
>Why is that a dangerous model?<
It is dangerous because it detours round the Society's constitutional
platform and its democratic process.
>The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each member
will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself.<
This is an ideal to strive for but not the reality of the situation.
And because members are not nucleuses of brotherhood yet they should
apply to constitutional frame which role is to instruct and force
them to behave in a fraternal manner.
>So creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not bad
at all if the present TS is not running properly.<
Well, the experience with the Esoteric Section shows that it didn't
achieve its goal and that its members didn't become cohesive and
fraternal force in the TS, quite the contrary. Every organization
established by a spiritual authority for the spiritual progress of
its members sooner or later becomes by default autocratic and
dogmatic. Here I agree with Krishnamurti: You can not organize the
Spiritual Path. It is a matter of each individual.
>Each member is only a member voluntarily.
Each group its own nucleus.
One should know one on ones fruits.
And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.<
Yes, exactly. Why create new TS which will possibly respect the
original program, constitutional platform and objects in a greater
degree if this is possible already within the present TS as every
lodge, national society and federation has all freedom to do that.
The work must be done from the ground not from the top. The top can
just encourage this with its own example. There are no shortcuts to
greater democracy and spirituality - every member has to do her/his
own homework.
>This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.<
Well, this is the big question. Is the TS a tool for Chela-ship? On
individual level it can and should be. But I think that it is much
more than that. It is a tool for greater harmony and peace in the
world - if it will work as it was meant to work.
Warmest regards,
Anton
--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@.. .> wrote:
>
> Dear Anton and friends
>
> My views are:
>
> Anton wrote:
> "In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous model,
> namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is regarded
> by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is
loyal
> to the Cause and original program of the Society and act
accordingly. "
>
>
> M. Sufilight says:
> Why is that a dangerous model?
>
> The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each member
will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself. So
creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not bad at
all if the present TS is not running properly.
>
>
> Each member are only a member volunterely.
>
> Each group its own nucleus.
> One should know one on ones fruits.
> And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.
>
> "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy,
or the
> competence of another man or institution, he must first learn
something
> which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his
perception
> itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional
> attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'.
This
> is 'Learning How To
> Learn." (Idries Shah)
>
>
> This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.
>
>
> M. Sufilight
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anton Rozman
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:05 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> I think that we, members of the TS, can do an enormous service to
the
> humanity if we will be able to solve the Society's problems in a
> democratic and fraternal manner. This is the reason why efforts
to
> reform the Society are worthwhile.
>
> Morten, you touched, in my opinion, the crucial problem: HPB
actually
> said that she is loyal to HSO, not because he is President of the
> Society but because he is loyal to the Theosophical Cause and
that
> the degree of her sympathy with the Theosophical Society and
Adyar
> depends upon the degree of loyalty of that Society to the Cause.
> Should it break away or show disloyalty to that Cause, and the
> original program of the Society, she would shake it off like dust
> from her feet.
>
> In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous model,
> namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is
regarded
> by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is
loyal
> to the Cause and original program of the Society and act
accordingly.
> And already superficial overview of the TS history shows that
those
> who considered themselves or were viewed by others as spiritual
> leaders (who are in touch with Masters or know what Masters
thought)
> were at the same time source of disagreements and schisms in the
> Society. This model is still very alive and I think that the
Society
> will not be able to solve its problems if it will not be able to
> address this issue properly.
>
> And Richard's parody is wonderful indication of our ludicrous
> situation.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Anton
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Drpsionic@ wrote:
> >
> > Choke choke laugh laugh choke laugh!
> >
> > The scare part it is that it might be true!
> >
> > Chuck the Heretic
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/8/2008 6:55:16 P.M. Central Standard
Time,
> > semockr@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have heard that the Dalai Lama is dropping out of his
position
> as
> > figurehead or spokesman for a free Tibet since none of his
> > initiatives in this regard have had the slightest impact on the
> > communist govt that has Tibet in its deadly embrace.
> >
> > This implys that president elect Obama has approached him with
an
> > offer to join his Administration of Change as secretary of
Ancient
> > Wisdom which is a new department that is being formed in the
> > executive branch. DK & KH were originally approached for the
> position
> > but they would only agree to precipitate an email now and then
by
> way
> > of communication and this was not sufficient contact to satisfy
> the
> > ex-hippies that Obama is seeding his cabinet with.
> >
> > For the first time in history then, the SD has a real chance to
> > replace the Bible and to have Theosophy occupy its rightful
place
> as
> > Law of the Land in the USA. After this has taken place, the
other
> > countrys will fall in line and Theosophy will experience a
> resurgence
> > that will beggar description of any previous coup.
> >
> > --- In _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-
> talk@yahoogroups. com) ,
> > MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well said.
> > >
> > > "Proof of the pudding is in the eating."
> > >
> > > Looking at the membership trend over the last 20 years world-
> wide
> > outside of
> > > India, there is a continuing steep decline. It continues
every
> > minute.
> > >
> > > The structure of TS was deliberately setup by the wise ones
with
> > total
> > > autonomy at lodge and section levels. So the buck stops at
the
> > sections.
> > >
> > > To address any problem, first correct problem has to be
> identified.
> > Then
> > > solutions can be found.
> > >
> > > Today's critical problem of TS is steep decline in membership
in
> all
> > > sections outside India. This is obvious. None of
the "leaders"
> > even wants
> > > to talk about it, because much of the decline took place in
> their
> > watch and
> > > they have no explanation.
> > >
> > > Meddling with International Rules is not going to do anything
to
> > address the
> > > membership growth, because TS is not a spiritual organization
> held
> > together
> > > by blind followers with blind faith and blind beliefs.
> > >
> > > It is all about a handful of GC members trying to do away
with
> > members'
> > > rights and seize power. That would give access to all the
assets
> > which they
> > > can spend as they want. In addition, they can put their
Puppet
> as
> > the
> > > President with wings clipped. Losers will be members, TS and
> > theosophy.
> > >
> > > And it would destroy TS in our life time, as members leave.
> > >
> > > That is where we are today.
> > >
> > > MKR
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 6:05 AM, Duane Carpenter
> > <monad_monad_ monad_mon
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > All membership comes from inspiration. All inspiration
comes
> from
> > > > enlightened leadership. It often takes great luminaries
like
> HPB
> > to light a
> > > > fire in those around them. If the structure of the
Theosophical
> > > > Society keeps out purposely or by default those of advanced
> > spiritual
> > > > development they will never attract new members. If new and
> > enlightened
> > > > leadership do not come into an organization or institution
to
> > give it
> > > > continue renewal and spiritual life that institution will
die
> a
> > slow
> > > > agonizing death from bureaucratic minutiae and
organizational
> > suffocation.
> > > > This is why some advocate revolution. If you cannot reform
and
> > change the
> > > > old structures you either create new ones in there place or
> get
> > out of the
> > > > way and let those more responsive to the new Aquarian
impulses
> do
> > there
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > DC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ ____ ____
> > > > From: MKR <mkr777@>
> > > > To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-
> talk@yahoogroups. com)
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 6:46:43 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
> > > >
> > > > From an ordinary intelligent person's view, as I have
> mentioned
> > several
> > > > time
> > > > previously, the most urgent real issue facing the TS is NOT
> > changing the
> > > > rules.
> > > >
> > > > It is the rapid and continuing decline in the number of
> members
> > in all the
> > > > sections outside India.
> > > >
> > > > TS was setup as fully autonomous at lodge and section
levels.
> So
> > the
> > > > problem
> > > > is the problem of section leaders and hard work of the
members
> in
> > the
> > > > section. Any amount of meddling with the rules is going to
do
> > nothing to
> > > > address the problem. The only thing that will do to by
> tweaking
> > and
> > > > meddling
> > > > with the rules is for the GC members to disenfranchise the
> > members and
> > > > seize
> > > > the control of the presidency and thus effectively making
the
> > president a
> > > > puppet in the hands of a few GC members.
> > > >
> > > > Once this happens, in our life time we will see the end of
TS
> > because we
> > > > are
> > > > not like other spiritual organizations whose basis is blind
> faith
> > and blind
> > > > beliefs.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone seen any GC member ever mention the membership
> decline
> > issue? It
> > > > is a very sorry state of affairs.
> > > >
> > > > mkr
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Anton Rozman
<anton_rozman@ ant>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear friends,
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the main interest of the Theosophical Society as
an
> > > > > international institution or common interest of all
members
> of
> > the
> > > > > Theosophical Society?
> > > > >
> > > > > In first place, to neutralize all partial interests of
> > individual
> > > > > members or groups of members which identify themselves
with
> > those of
> > > > > the Theosophical Society and in that way to be able to
> realize
> > its
> > > > > objects on the basis of its constitutional platform. In
> present
> > > > > situation common interest is wholly absent and crippled.
> > > > >
> > > > > The scissors and linen to overcome it are wholly in the
> hands
> > of the
> > > > > elected President. She, and only she, has received a
mandate
> to
> > unify
> > > > > the Society under a common interest. She has the power
and
> > authority
> > > > > to do that.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is obvious that routine proceedings aren't enough to
> solve
> > actual
> > > > > problem. According to Rules and Regulations the President
has
> > > > > authority to: ââ,¬Â¦ a special meeting may be called at
any
> time by
> > the
> > > > > President ââ,¬Â¦ the President at his discretion may
call such
> > members to
> > > > > a meeting for the purpose of study and discussion of any
> matters
> > > > > concerning the Society that he considers appropriate to
lay
> > before
> > > > > them. The meeting may then forward to the President its
> report
> > on
> > > > > such matters and may make recommendations thereon. Such
> meetings
> > > > > shall be of a consultative nature without administrative
or
> > > > > legislative authority, or may be of a legislative nature
> upon
> > the
> > > > > decision of the General Council taken at least one year
in
> > advance.
> > > > > In the event the President does not himself attend such a
> > meeting he
> > > > > may appoint the Vice-President or some other member of
the
> > General
> > > > > Council to preside in his stead.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the basis of these Regulations and with the use of
> internet
> > > > > technology an extended discussion panel can be formed to
> address
> > > > > important critical issues. With making such discussion
> panel
> > public
> > > > > the Theosophical Society would show to its members and
> public in
> > > > > general that it is able to overcome divisions and find a
> common
> > > > > interest according to the philosophy the Society is
> promoting.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is, in my opinion, the only way out from the death
> alley
> > we are
> > > > > catched in.
> > > > >
> > > > > Warmest regards,
> > > > > Anton
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ ---- ---- -
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ -------- -------- -----
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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