Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00918)

So by your own admission Anand it was Blavatsky who pre-empted Leadbeater on Life on other planets- he just gave them the green ears

Cass




________________________________
From: Anand <AnandGholap@gmail.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 24 October, 2008 6:56:36 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Anand, did you get the cart BEFORE the horse??


Daniel,
I wonder how you and Pedro can say Leadbeater was wrong about Mars and
Mercury.
Here are the passages from Blavatsky's writing.
------------ --------- --------- --------- -
"For even great adepts (those initiated of course), trained seers
though they are, can claim thorough acquaintance with the nature and
appearance of planets and their inhabitants belonging to our solar
system only. They know that almost all the planetary worlds are inhabited"

"Still the fact remains that most of the planets, as the stars beyond
our system, are inhabited, a fact which has been admitted by the men
of science themselves. Laplace and Herschell believed it, though they
wisely abstained from imprudent speculation; and the same conclusion
has been worked out and supported with an array of scientific
considerations by C. Flammarion, the well-known French Astronomer."

"Thus scientific reasoning, as well as observed facts, concur with the
statements of the seer and the innate voice in man's own heart in
declaring that life -- intelligent, conscious life -- must exist on
other worlds than ours." 
------------ --------- --------- --------
To a considerable extent Blavatsky's writing supports Leadbeater's
claims of life and habitation on Mars and Mercury. Blavatsky did not
describe in detail the life of people on Mars and Mercury. Because of
it, it is not possible to prove Leadbeater's in detail observation was
wrong by comparing it with Blavatsky's writing.

Anand Gholap

--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "danielhcaldwell"
<danielhcaldwell@ ...> wrote:
>
> Anand,
> 
> You write:
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> C.W. Leadbeater was reliable clairvoyant, most of the times.. So he
> knew if the real Master visited him or just the form created by
> somebody else. Suppose Blavatsky had created Master's form, or visited
> herself in Master's form, C. W. Leadbeater would have known it. But as
> C. W. Leadbeater considered Master's visits genuine, they are perhaps
> not "forged visits", like some others might have experienced.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> 
> But Anand, I ask you to read Leadbeater's account:
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> ...When Colonel Olcott left us [in 1885] on his tour Adyar 
> [headquarters of the Theosophical Society near Madras, India] 
> remained empty. . . . 
> 
> It should be understood that in those days I possessed NO CLAIRVOYANT 
> FACULTY, nor had I ever regarded myself as at all sensitive... . 
> 
> One day, however, when the Master Kuthumi honoured me with a visit, 
> He asked me whether I had ever attempted a certain kind of meditation 
> connected with the development of the mysterious power called 
> kundalini. I had of course heard of that power, but knew very little 
> about it, and at any rate supposed it to be absolutely out of reach 
> for Western people....
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> CAPS ADDED
> 
> According to Leadbeater's own account, he was NOT clairvoyant at all 
> when he encountered the Master KH at Adyar.
> 
> Yet you contend:
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> So he knew [because of his reliable clairvoyance? ?] if the real 
> Master visited him or just the form created by somebody else. Suppose 
> Blavatsky had created Master's form, or visited herself in Master's 
> form, C. W. Leadbeater would have known it [because of his reliable 
> clairvoyance? ?].
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> 
> Aren't you getting the cart BEFORE the horse?
> 
> How would he know anything about this form other than what the 
> devious Blavatsky would want him to know?
> 
> According to his own admission, he had no clairvoyant ability 
> whatsover - whether it might be reliable or unreliable.
> 
> And IF it was her modus operandi (as you have wanted us to 
> consider/believe) to create the Master's form or to visit herself 
> [PRETENDING] to be the Master by assuming that form, then when the 
> Master appeared at Adyar, Leadbeater would have been in no better 
> position to determine what this form really was or who had created 
> it, than you or me..... [Unless you are a reliable 
> clairvoyant :) ]
> 
> As to Leadbeater's clairvoyance and the issue of how reliable or 
> unreliable it was, I will address this in more detail in another 
> email but for now I append BELOW a posting I wrote to Pedro some 3 
> and 1/2 years ago about the reliability/ unreliability of Leadbeater's 
> clairvoyance on Mars and Mercury. 
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> POSTING TO PEDRO IS BELOW:
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
> 
> Regarding Mars, Leadbeater's clairvoyant descriptions are basically 
> wrong.... 
> 
> Pedro,
> 
> You write:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
> Regarding Mars, Leadbeater's clairvoyant
> descriptions are basically wrong, except for
> the one that says that there is life in Mars.
> At the beginning of the twentieth century it
> was quite laughable to affirm that. It does
> not seem that laughable now in view of expanding
> scientific knowledge.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
> 
> Pedro,
> 
> Thanks for your reply on this one topic.
> 
> I ask you and other interested persons to
> reread Mr. Leadbeater's description of
> Mars and its people as found at:
> 
> http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ leadbeatermars. htm
> 
> Here is Mr. Leadbeater in a very "matter of
> fact way" describing Mars and its inhabitants.
> This is Mr. Leadbeater in his best writing style....
> 
> He doesn't just say a few superfical remarks
> but goes into considerable detail about Mars.
> 
> Consider one passage:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= =========
> In physical appearance the Martians are not unlike ourselves, except
> that they are considerably smaller. The tallest men are not above
> five feet in height and the majority are two or three inches shorter.
> According to our ideas they are somewhat broad in proportion, having
> very great chest capacity - a fact which may possibly be due to the
> rarity of the air and the consequent necessity of deep breathing in
> order fully to oxygenate the blood. The whole civilised population of
> Mars is one race, and there is practically no difference in features
> or complexion, except that, just as among ourselves, there are
> blondes and brunettes, some of the people having a faintly yellowish
> skin and black hair, while the majority have yellow hair and blue or
> violet eyes - somewhat Norwegian in appearance. They dress mostly in
> brilliant colours, and both sexes wear an almost shapeless garment of
> some very soft material which falls straight down from the shoulders
> down to the feet. Generally the feet are bare, though they sometimes
> use a sort of metal sandal or slipper, with a thong round the ankle.
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
> 
> Or take the following:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====
> The King has under him what may be called viceroys of large
> districts, and they in turn have under them governors of smaller
> districts, and so on down to what would be equivalent here to the
> head man of a village. All these officials are chosen by the King
> from this group of specially educated children, and when the time of
> his own death is considered to be approaching it is from them or from
> among the already appointed officials that he chooses his successor.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> 
> Or the following:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
> They are very fond of flowers, of which there is a great variety, and
> their towns are built on the general plan of the garden-city, the
> houses usually being one-storeyed only, but built round inner
> courtyards and straggling over a great deal of ground. These houses
> look exteriorly as though built of coloured glass, and indeed the
> material which is used is transparent, but it is somehow so fluted
> that while the persons inside enjoy an almost unimpeded view of their
> gardens, no one from outside can see what is going on in the house.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
> 
> and on and on.......... .......
> 
> Where and how did Mr. Leadbeater obtain this information about
> Mars and its inhabitants?
> 
> He writes:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
> The information which I have given above is based upon OBSERVATION
> and inquiry during various VISITS to the planet; yet nearly all of it
> might be found in the works of various writers within the last thirty
> or forty years, and in all such cases it has been impressed by
> someone from Mars, although the very fact of such impression was (at
> least in some cases) quite unknown to the physical writer.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
> 
> CAPS ADDED.
> 
> Leadbeater even goes on to say:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
> At the present time this secret society [on Mars] is very widely
> spread, and at the head of it at this moment is a pupil of ONE OF OUR 
> MASTERS. Even now after all these centuries its existence is not
> officially known to the authorities. ..
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
> 
> CAPS ADDED.
> 
> Here Leadbeater brings in the Theosophical Masters and says that
> the head of this secret Martian society is a pupil of one of
> "our Masters".
> 
> So if Leadbeater is "basically wrong" in his observations about
> Mars, then this Martian "pupil" of the Masters must be simply
> a FIGMENT of Mr. Leadbeater's mind, right?
> 
> Some might even suggest that Mr. Leadbeater's "Masters" are of the
> same quality ---- that is, imaginary!!
> 
> Pedro, you write that regarding Mars, "Leadbeater' s clairvoyant
> descriptions are basically wrong."
> 
> Well, what about his clairvoyant descriptions of Mercury?
> 
> He writes:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =========
> Of our future home, Mercury, we know much less than of Mars, for
> visits to it have been hurried and infrequent. Many people would
> think it incredible that life such as ours could exist on Mercury,
> with a sun that appears at least seven times as large as it does
> here. The heat, however, is not at all so intense as would be
> supposed....
> 
> The influence of gravity both on Mars and Mercury is less than half
> what it is on earth, but while on Mars I did not notice any
> particular way in which advantage had been taken of this. I observed
> on Mercury that the doors of the houses were quite a considerable
> height from the ground, needing what for us would be a respectable
> gymnastic feat to reach them, though on Mercury it is only a slight
> spring which is required. All the inhabitants of that planet are from
> birth possessed of etheric sight; I remember that the fact was first
> brought to my notice by observing a child who was watching the
> movements of some crawling creature; and I saw that when it entered
> its abode he was still able to follow its movements, even when it was
> deep down under the ground.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
> 
> So if Mr. Leadbeater is basically wrong about Mars, then where
> did all this detailed information come from?
> 
> And remember it is with the same "matter of factness" that Leadbeater
> ALSO writes down his clairvoyant observations about the history of
> the planet earth, about the atoms of occult chemistry, about life
> after death, etc. including his descriptions of the Masters and their
> places of residences.
> 
> If Leadbeater can be basically wrong in his description of Mars, if
> one can conclude that he was somehow deluded by his own imagination
> or psychic faculty concerning Mars, then the pressing question
> remains:
> 
> how much of his other clairvoyant observations are basically wrong
> and imaginary???
> 
> And notice what Madame Blavatsky writes in the second column of the
> following page:
> 
> http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ leadbeatermars. htm
> 
> Blavatsky writes:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
> . . . We find in the romances as in all the so-called scientific
> fictions and spiritistic revelations from moon, stars, and planets,
> merely fresh combinations or modifications of the men and things, the
> passions and forms of life with which we are familiar, when even on
> the other planets of our own system nature and life are entirely
> different from ours. Swedenborg was pre-eminent in inculcating such
> an erroneous belief.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ===
> 
> Compare and contrast HPB's statement with Mr. Leadbeater's
> explanations:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> ...yet nearly all of it [the information about the inhabitants of
> Mars] might be found in the works of various writers within the last
> thirty or forty years, and IN ALL CASES it has been impressed BY
> SOMEONE FROM MARS, although the very fact of such impression was (at
> least in some cases) quite unknown to the physical writer.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =======
> 
> And he also writes:
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> Some at least of the members of the secret society [on Mars] have
> learnt how to cross without great difficulty the space which
> separates us from Mars, and have therefore at various times tried to
> manifest themselves through mediums at spiritualist seances, or have
> been able, by the methods which they have learnt, to impress their
> ideas upon poets and novelists
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
> 
> But Madame Blavatsky wrote:
> 
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
> Many are the romances and tales, some purely fanciful, others
> bristling with scientific knowledge, which have attempted to imagine
> and describe life on other globes. But one and all, they give but
> some distorted copy of the drama of life around us. It is either,
> with Voltaire, the men of our own race under a microscope, or, with
> de Bergerac, a graceful play of fancy and satire; but we always find
> that at bottom the new world is but the one we ourselves live in. So
> strong is this tendency that even great natural, though non-initiated
> seers, when untrained, fall a victim to it; witness Swedenborg, who
> goes so far as to dress the inhabitants of Mercury, whom he meets
> with in the spirit-world, in clothes such as are worn in Europe.
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> 
> It would appear that "this tendency" was strong ENOUGH in Mr.
> Leadbeater also and he fell victim to it.
> 
> Would you agree with this Pedro?
> 
> More about "this tendency" can be found at:
> 
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 18777
> 
> And related issues can be found at:
> 
> http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ theosophy1. htm
> 
> http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ theosophy2. htm
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
>

 


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