Theos-Talk Archives (July 2008 Message tt00314)

Clairvoyants see through a dark glass darkly, they cannot predict very much but they get glimpses.? Leadbeater did get a glimpse that his teachings would last and have an impact.? What he could not see was the type of impact they would have.

Chuck the Heretic


http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 


-----Original Message-----
From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object







Hello Morten and M. Sufilight

My first impression when a so-called Leadbeater paedophilia case is brought up, I ask myself why? Why bring this up. We weren't even talking about such things when this came up. And when this is brought up, no matter what the motive of the person raising this issue [again] the waters are "muddied" up with this salaciousness. No one really knows whether he was indeed a child molester. We only know that he taught certain practices in the 18th century that were not considered to be normal or proper at that time. But I would bet that most [if not all] men, though never taught the practice, indulged in masturbation, in the 18th, 19th, 20th and now the 21st century .

Perhaps Leadbeater did not like women, and preferred to practice masturbation. I don't know. He liked Annie Besant. She liked him. She had been married and had known notorious men. So what. Even Blavatsky's reputation has been spotted in regard to marriage and sex. So what. These are human beings.

Anyway, I agree that Leadbeater's writings should be discussed. The neophyte would find them easily digested and assimilated. The theosophical books should be read, which will bring up questions. Many questions. 

But the one question I still have about Leadbeater is: If he was so clairvoyant, why did he not foresee how his teachings would affect us as seekers and theosophist. HIs clairvoyance is the one true thing that was false about him. I.M.H.O.

Marie

-----Original Message-----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 3:01 pm
Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

Dear Marie and all

My views are:

You asked a few questions. I take it, that you asked me?
Your questions sound sincere, and that I am happy about.

I will seek to answer you in all compassionate friendliness.

1.
Marie asked in her below email:
"Why is this always brought up as having any relevancy today? "

I will have to ask: What is "always"?
The big problem is, that a great number of Seekers are not aware of the TRUTH about this issue - sexuality - within theosophical teaching and the theosophical history. And they are still running around with a blurred impression about what kind of Sexual behaviour is the true spiritual one. Or whether they better join one of those numerous more or less dubious Tantric sects, which are prevalent these days. 

One of the reasons for this blurred view is that various TS groups keep silencing any talk what so ever about this very central theosophical issue. And we wonder why? - In the old days. They were not holding back. So what have changed?

- A few days back I in fact asked some questions here at Theos-talk about how TS and other theosophical groups today related to sexual activity, and whether they taught their children and grown ups according to CWL's theories or according to something else? I felt I had every right to ask. This issue is very central to life. And my questions they were never as far as I am concerned answered.

These are just my views.

2.
Marie asked in her below email:
Why is mud being thrown on theosophy and theosophists.

First I have to ask what "mud" are we talking about?
>From the bottom of my Heart I will admit, that I earliere on at this forum a few years back was very tough upon CWL's historical merits. I regret that.

Yet the "mud" you talk about in this thread - are so to speak only "mud" if the motive of the accused "slinger" of it was or is bad. Now, the question is whether the motive of the accused was or is a different one, than the one you perceive?

I feel that I have every right to ask the questions I asked.

I have done my best to be of service.
- - - - - - - 

H. P. Blavatsky said:
'[N]o one can properly or with safety enter on the study of Practical Occultism, in the real sense of the word, unless he or she is a celibate . . . The Spinal Cord puts into connection the Brain and the Generative Organs, and this connection is further strengthened by the Sympathetic System. The Cord, however, gives an open passage, which opens into the important cavities of the Brain. Excitement of the Generative Organs sends up impulses and subtle essences to the Brain by way of the spinal canals. Now the three vital airs are ruled by the Will, and Will and Desire are the higher and lower aspects of one and the same thing. These airs . . . play in the canals, and hence the importance of their absolute purity. For if they soil the vital airs energized by the Will, disease results at the best, Black Magic at the worst. Therefore all sexual intercourse is forbidden to the students of Practical Occultism.' (BCW 12:702)

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

The first wrong done was Leadbeater's inappropriate teachings to young boys. The second wrong that was done is that the Leadbeater legacy will never die....even tho he and all the boys he ever taught anything to have since died as well. Why is this always brought up as having any relevancy today? Why is mud being thrown on theosophy and theosophists. And why, since he was such a clairvoyant, did he and Besant not forsee this? Bah humbug and flapdoodle!

Marie

-----Original Message-----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 4:37 pm
Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

Allright.

I do not have acces to all files.
Maybe someone else at this forum will offer me and the planet compassionate assistence on this matter, so to help Zaitzev.

I know the following...

1.
A letter from C. W. Leadbeater about - his own readmission.
http://krotonaarchives.com/Charles_W._Leadbeater_Cases_files/08.Leadbeater_letter_TSReview.source_Kunz.pdf

2. Annie Besant on C. W. Leadbeater's - readmission. About how she rightly threw some of the emotional anti-Leadbeater theosophist into their rightful place.
But also how she distorted the truth about the matter!

"If the Theosophical Society wishes to undo the wrong done to him, it is for the Convention of each Section to ask me to invite his return, and I will rejoice to do so."
http://krotonaarchives.com/Charles_W._Leadbeater_Cases_files/08.09.07.Besant_letter_to_TS.pdf

Annie Besant clearly wanted to delete the charges from the below earlier meeting where Olcott and G.R.S. Mead, A.P. Sinnett and others were present. It was charges up to that meeting, that made C. W. Leadbeater leave the TS and resign before he were thrown out!

3. The Report from the meeting in 1906, may 16th in London, where C. W. Leadbeater resigned and where he - admitted - to have done wrong in not asking the parents before "educating" the children. And where he admitted, that there "might" have been actual touch involved in the teachings! Something he denied in the Court case in 1912!

Here is the report from 16th maj 1906 meeting in London as well as various letters from the time.
http://blavatskyarchives.com/besantleadbeaterlistletters.htm
(Just to let the readers know: I have recently translated this Report into Danish. It is now online on the Internet.)

When the charges were going to be deleted by the Annie Besant - the Leader of Esoteric Section and TS as a whole, one will clearly see, what was going on.

4. A vital paper about what it was all about, when C. W. Leadbeater was readmitted...
"The adoption by the Convention of a Resolution asking the General Council to restore Mr. Leadbeater to membership in the Theosophical Society. No conditions are stated, no recantation of his teaching is exacted. The Resolution is in these words: "Resolved that the proper officer or officers of the T. S. be and the same are hereby requested by the American Section T. S. in meeting duly assembled, to invite as soon as possible Mr. Charles W. Leadbeater to accept again membership in the Theosophical Society.""
http://krotonaarchives.com/Charles_W._Leadbeater_Cases_files/08.11-09.01.Theosophic_Voice_v1.n3.pdf

This was what it all was about in 1908. There were no conditions involved what so ever!
Nor where there as far as I know any imposed on him later after he joined the TS again.
And I wonder, what the answer was from Annie Besant to this protest, which was given in this the last mentioned PDF-file. I can only suggest reading the above 70 pages carefully.

You may correct me if I am wrong.

I am not aware of that C. W. Leadbeater held any office before he resigned in 1906. 

I know, that he lectured and wrote books within TS. But I can imagine that he lost any position he might have had in the British Section in 1906.
Yet the readmission set no limits upon his re-entry into the TS.
When he became a member again he was allowed to teach and travel around the world. He authored several books. And he was the one who was said to have discovered J. Krishnamurti. Just imagine how many paedophile victim's will feel when they read this and join the TS Adyar. 
I wonder if you can imagine somethign like that Zaitzev??? 

He even started to teach children again in Australia. What he actually taught them can we only contemplate.

- - - - - - - 
I would add and say, that Those who know how it is to be a paedophile victim will better understand the issue, than most of those calling themselves theosophists do today in TS Adyar.

If i remember correctly C.W. Leadbeater became a member of the E.S. somewhere after 1908. And he was working in close coorperation with Annie Besant.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Konstantin Zaitzev 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
<global-theosophy@...> wrote:

> At court C. W. Leadbeater lied about his behavior towards 

You DIDN'T reply to the previous agruments about membership.
Which type of membership do you propose?
You should be responsible for your own words:

> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
> <global-theosophy@> wrote:

> But to me, the greatest failure was allowing C. W. Leadbeater to 
> be a member on the same level again. 

>> And of which levels members should be. Do you propose to have 
>> members of first and second sort?

> children six years earlier. The Judge at court did not know about
> it, so he was not jailed. That is telling enough.

For me, the court verdict is enough, as we are talking about the 
accusation in criminal case. As there is no higher authority in such 
things than the court. Consequently what you say is most probably 
slander. If Leadbeater was alive, he could easily sue you and win the 
case.

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