Theos-Talk Archives (July 2008 Message tt00266)

My views are:

No guru's are allowed in the J. Krishnamurti universe. So how can you meditate together with anyone?
When did Krishnamurti ever talk about other persons as being an option to learn from, except himself?

J. Krishnamurti almost promoted himself like a gangster whispering: 
You know, all those spiritual teachers are phonies. Do not listen to them. I am telling you the truth. I am the real one. Listen to me. I am the guru to listen to, but do not follow me even if I say that you aught to!
Flapdoodle!



J. Krishnamurti said:
" I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be 'stepped down' or organized for you."
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/k_pathless.htm (1929)


M. Sufilight says: 
That spells solitude to me...That spells no chelaship and meditation without anyone guiding you. That is creating problems, when we talk about good and bad magic.

As long as a the socalled "Messiah" J. Krishanmaurti never have defended the teachings by H. P. Blavatsky, I find it reasonable to conclude this.


J. Krishnamurti said:
"Truth cannot be sought: it comes to you."
http://thelivingfield.com/wiki/index.php5?title=J._Krishnamurti_on_Gurus 

M. Sufilight says: But did he not just say in the previuos quote that we had to climb towards it???

- - - - - - -

J. Krishnamurti said:
"You must understand it, go into it, examine it, and give your heart and your mind, with everything that you have, to find out a way of living differently. That depends on you, and not on someone else, because in this there is no teacher, nopupil; there is no leader; there is no guru; there is no Master, no Saviour. You yourself are the teacher and the pupil; you are the Master; you are the guru; you are the leader; you are everything." (nov. 1966)
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the_collected_works_of_j.krishnamurti_vol_17/1966-11-05_ojai_3rd_public_talk_5th_november_1966.html


M. Sufilight says: What! No saviour? I am the Teacher and everything, and not ignorant anymore? So who are you, J. Krishnamurti?
- - - - - - -


He taught people to meditate using dangerous methods. Dangerous in the sense, that they might very well lead people who uses the techniques into sorcery and Black Magic. One reason being that no guidance by any Master is allowed. (I.e. appearntly with the view: There are no Masters or teachers only J. Krishnamurti. And J. Krishnamurti was not allowed to be followed.)


The socalled "Messiah" J. Krishnamurti said:
"There is no need to go from teacher to teacher, from guru to guru, from leader to leader, for all things are contained in you, the beginning and the end."
http://www.joeliang.ca/jiddu-krishanmurti


- - - - - - -

J. Krishnamurti said:
"Masters, gurus, teachers, cannot help to free thought from its own self-imposed bondage and suffering; neither ceremonies, nor priests, nor organizations, can liberate thought from its attachments, fears, cravings; these may force it into a new mould and shape it, but thought can free itself only through its own critical awareness and self-reliance. 

Extrasensory perception, clairvoyance, occult powers, cannot free thought from confusion and misery; sensitive awareness of our thoughts and motives, from which spring our speech and action, is the beginning of lasting understanding and love. Mere self-control, discipline, self-punishment, or renunciation, cannot liberate thought; but constant awareness and pliability give clarity and strength. Only in becoming aware of the cause of ignorance, in understanding the process of craving and its dual opposing values, is there freedom from suffering. This discerning awareness must begin in our life of relationship with things, people, and ideas, with our own hidden thoughts and daily action. 

The way we think makes our life either complete or contradictory and unbalanced. Through awareness of craving, with its complex process, there comes an understanding; which brings detachment and serenity. Detachment or serenity is not an end in itself. In this world of frenzied buying and selling, whose economy is based on craving, unless thought is persistently aware, greed and envy bring the confusing and conflicting problems of possessions, attachment, and competition. Our private thoughts and motives can bring either harmony in our relationship or disturbance and pain. It depends on each one what he makes of relationship with another or with society. There can never be self-isolation, however much one may crave for it; relationship is ever continuous; to be is to be related. 


1940 Notes on Sarobia Discussions
The Collected Works of J. Krishnamurti, Vol III"
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/med_clai.html

But did he not just say, that Masters, gurus, teachers and even organisations could not help you? Now he ends it all with that self-isolation never can be. So what is he actually saying?



- - - - - - - 
Now try this one.......

The socalled "Messiah" J. Krishnamurti - From: The First And Last Freedom, page 84-85 (q&a, question 3).
The First and Last Freedom is a book by Jiddu Krishnamurti. It was Krishnamurti's second book. The foreword was written by Aldous Huxley.:


"What is important is not who is right - whether I am right or whether those are right who say a guru is necessary; to find out why you need a guru is important. Gurus exist for exploitation of various kinds, but that is irrelevant. It gives you satisfaction if someone tells you how you are progressing, but to find out why you need a guru - there lies the key. Another can point out the way but you have to do all the work, even if you have a guru. Because you do not want to face that, you shift the responsibility to the guru. The guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge: it comes when you are aware of yourself in relationship. To be, is to be related; not to understand relationship is misery, strife. Not to be aware of your relationship to property is one of the causes of confusion. If you do not know your right relationship to property there is bound to be conflict, which increases the conflict in society. If you do not understand the relationship between yourself and your wife, between yourself and your child, how can another resolve the conflict arising out of that relationship? Similarly with ideas, beliefs and so on. Being confused in your relationship with people, with property, with ideas, you seek a guru. If he is a real guru, he will tell you to understand yourself. You are the source of all misunderstanding and confusion; and you can resolve that conflict only when you understand yourself in relationship."

"Truth cannot be sought: it comes to you."
http://thelivingfield.com/wiki/index.php5?title=J._Krishnamurti_on_Gurus 

Previously we heard, that guru's were not allowed. But if it is a "real guru" he or she is allowed??? Are we confused now?

This tells me, that the socalled "Messiah" J. Krishnamurti's followers also are confused. Do you understand this?
They claim that Guru's are no good, yet they accept the socalled "Messiah" J. Krishnamurti as their guru so to speak. Because he must be a "real guru", because he tell them so.

In the Master-Chela relationship it is always the Master who seeks out the Chela or Seeker to get on probation at first. It is NEVER the other way around even if some people think so. As we say: You will never walk alone.



(Taken from Theos-L, jan. 2008)



M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:20 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object


  Morten,
  Have you read Krishnamurti?  Where did he recommend meditating in solitude.?
  Cass

  ----- Original Message ----
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 4:14:25 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

  Nobody is a complete failure.
  But an Avatar like Krishna he was not. 

  He did not start anything new. He only recommended people to become Prathyeka Buddhists meditating in solitude or similar without telling them the difference between good and bad magic.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mkr777@gmail. com 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:34 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded in attaining it's object

  There is another angle to K.

  If any of his writings or speeches have helped anyone, then for that
  *person*, it is immaterial whether he failed or not. This is because in the
  final analysis, it is one's life that is important.

  Considering the bookshelves of major book sellers are well stocked with his
  works seems to indicate many are reading them. When I went to my local major
  bookstore chain, I saw more K's books than all the theosophical
  books combined. Shelfspace allocation is based on how fast the publications
  move, it seems to indicate lot of the books are getting sold to the public.

  mkr

  On 7/21/08, Anand <AnandGholap@ gmail.com> wrote:
  >
  > Only big failure in Annie Besant's work was about J. Krishnamurti. And
  > I accept it was a big failure. Annie Besant and Leadbeater lived only
  > for few years after the World Teacher project had failed. Perhaps if
  > they had lived longer and observed Krishnamurti project, they would
  > have declared it failure.
  > One thing I find challenging is why Annie Besant did not openly
  > declare that WT project had failed. CWL in his writing showed how J.
  > Krishnamurti was wrong. But there were some reasons why both of them
  > did not openly say that WT project had failed.
  > Even if they did not say openly so, I have stated clearly that WT
  > project has failed. That should save many people from getting misled
  > by J. Krishnamurti.
  > I request that other active Theosophical workers should also declare
  > Krishnamurt project had failed and/or give link to my article "Failure
  > of J. Krishnamurti on the Path of Occultism"
  > Best
  > Anand Gholap
  >
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>, "Morten
  > Nymann Olesen"
  > <global-theosophy@ ...> wrote:
  > >
  > > Anand wrote:
  > > "She had
  > > foretold that League of Nations was just beginning, later all nations
  > > would work together, as happened through United Nations. "
  > >
  > > I am happily surprised. That is news to me. So they are working
  > together now are they?
  > >
  > > She also fortold a lot of other things, which did not come true.
  > Especially about J. Krishnamurti.
  > >
  > >
  > > M. Sufilight
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: Anand
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
  > > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:55 PM
  > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Cheers ! Theosophical Society succeeded
  > in attaining it's object
  > >
  > >
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,
  > "Morten Nymann Olesen"
  > > <global-theosophy@ > wrote:
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Anand wrote:
  > > > "I think credit of such
  > > > peace on earth goes to the Theosophical Society to much extent."
  > > >
  > > > You may believe that.
  > > > But the fact is, that all of us have helped it along.
  > >
  > > That is true. In wider sense those who studied Theosophy, and lived to
  > > some extent according to principles of Theosophy have helped.
  > > There is another prophecy of Annie Besant which came true. She had
  > > foretold that League of Nations was just beginning, later all nations
  > > would work together, as happened through United Nations.
  > > Best
  > > Anand Gholap
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  >
  > 
  >

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