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Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

Jun 02, 2008 08:14 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I think it depends on how you view it all.
I find J. Krishnamurti just as damaging as CWL to the theosophical cause and to TS - if not more than CWL.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

Who are we to judge Krishnamurti.&nbsp; He has helped far more souls with insight into their lower self, than ever Besant and Leadbeater did.
&nbsp;
Cass

--- On Mon, 6/2/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@stofanet.dk&gt; wrote:

From: Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@stofanet.dk&gt;
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 2, 2008, 12:49 AM

My views are:

I can only disagree with such a kind of teaching. That is all.
I am perfectly aware of the Non-dual teachings through my own experiences.

Why do you and others keep up this farce and emotionally oriented
Kirshnamurti cult?
Why is the following not enough to show everyone at the TS, where the J.
Krishnamurti teachings belong?

The total denial and rejection

Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to
spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake
propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself
the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is
dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge
meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What
service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can
only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to
make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult.
Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest....

In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
" So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the
Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing
in common with what I say"
http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&amp;pg=RA2- PA379&amp;lpg= RA2-PA379&amp; dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&amp;source= web&amp;ots=StjngNWK 0k&amp;sig=yBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1

NOTHING?
As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the
Christian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing
in common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does
the T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: &lt;Augoeides-222@ comcast.net&gt;
To: &lt;theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com&gt;
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

Morten,
The Pre- Christian Mandaeans ended all their works with "And Life is
Victorious!" . Even back then they knew what you are unwilling to accept from
the lips of Krishnamurti. My suggestion is read the Abidharma which fills
the words of Krishnamurti that you qoute and which H. P. B. herself also
taught as she was taught. Again Krishnamurti speaks in the language of the
Non-dual until Theosphists bring themselves to exposure to the Non-Dual
School they will always be left to the conditioned mind and it's prejudices.
Just my personal perception of the situational source and causes.

Regards,
John

------------ -- Original message ------------ --
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt;
Dear Cass and all readers

My views are:

Nobody said that he was only adressing Annie Besant in his speech.
And the fact that he allowed to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at
least 4 years if not for 18 years without really counter-acting it - aught
to tell you something.

Even Geoffrey Hodson said that J. Krishnamurti was promoted as Maitreya -
World Teacher at the Star Camp in Ommen - and that J. Krishnamurti was aware
of this.

And what about the following?:

J. Krishnamurti said:
"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself
without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to
worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which
dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs,
religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php

I think it speak for it self.

He never really denied not yet being realised as a Maitreya. Please, tell
me - Is there any place where he denies being the Maitreya World-Teacher?
I wonder if Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater raised him like this because
they themselves never admitted errors?

At least H. P. Blavatsky and others - myself included are ready to admit
errors when we can perceive them.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.&amp;nbsp; You have made
clear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti' s own mouth we hear
that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through
Maitreya.&amp;nbsp;
&amp;nbsp;
The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this:
"As I said,&amp;nbsp;YOU (BESANT)&amp;nbsp; have been preparing for eighteen years
for me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher or
not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the
organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your
energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU,
BESANT)&amp;nbsp; partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking,
only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths
(BESANT'S HALF TRUTHS)

You (BESANT)&amp;nbsp; have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many
difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understan ding, how many
complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your
fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain,
are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do
not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to
understand what I am saying."&amp;nbsp; (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER).
&amp;nbsp;
Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???
&amp;nbsp;
&amp;nbsp;
Cass
&amp;nbsp;

--- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen
&amp;lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&amp;gt; wrote:

From: Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&amp;gt;
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM

To all readers

My views are:

Allright Cass.
Here we go...

1.
There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said:

"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself
without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to
worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which
dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs,
religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the-
law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php

2.
J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings:

The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tells
me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given by
H. P. Blavatsky.

"What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the
guidance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress
held at Ommen, Holland, in 1925.

That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth
anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11,
the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the
almost immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to
which Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the
Congress was to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had
been burdened by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her
opening address, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references
to personages like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her
listeners:
And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some of
the messages of the Lord Maitreya
and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement,
is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He will
choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord
Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention
seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship,
Who were the "Arhats"?
The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and
myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale,
Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale,
I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one,
but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very
dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He
had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by
his King.
Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as
the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am." .
Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was
really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has
grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled,
many thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect,
since He has said it, it is done. . . "
( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm )

M. Sufilight comments:
Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years
if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J.
Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of
protesting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales
leadership of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until
Radha Burnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from
the TS, which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never
talked about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to
bash their value and to promote himself!

3.
The total denial and rejection

In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
" So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the
Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing
in common with what I say"
http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&amp;amp;pg=RA2- PA379&amp;amp;lpg=
RA2-PA379&amp;amp; dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&amp;amp;source=
web&amp;amp;ots= StjngNWK 0k&amp;amp;sig=yBGu2frk W 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1

4.
Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti:

We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the
early J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the
Star in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the
TS was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World
Teacher?

The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this:
"As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care
if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little
importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star,
you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti
is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really
seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own
half-truths.

You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties
there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many
trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches
new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I
cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I
do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."
....
"So why have an organization? "
....
" I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want
you to understand what I am saying."

(From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta.
ws/TPH_TIPL. HTM)

- - - - - - -

All this, is more than enough to me.

- - - - - - - - -

5.
Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views:
"He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of
the Theosophical Society for
Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to
read a Theosophical book in His life -
could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard many
Theosophical lectures, none of
them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth.""
(" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 )

6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict
Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict:
"Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der
Leeuw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers
Maatschappij, 1930)
http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya?
Cass

--- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;amp;lt;global- theosophy@
stofanet. dk&amp;amp;gt; wrote:

From: Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;amp;lt;global- theosophy@ stofanet. dk&amp;amp;gt;
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM

Agreed.
So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what
kind of teaching is that?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to
teach, e.g. Gandhi.
Cass

Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;amp;lt;global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&amp;amp;gt; wrote:

Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He".

My views are:

J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number
of other contemporaries.

Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul
Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oom"
or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda
Saraswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra
David-Néel, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly
call themselves more civilized than others).

Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish.
He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

My views are:

J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number
of other contemporaries.

Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish.
I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out
that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or his
followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is
speaking without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not,
Krishnamurti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out,
but nevertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the
world, only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.

Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not
he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.

Cass

Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;amp;lt;global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&amp;amp;gt; wrote:
My views are:

So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a
World Teacher Maitreya?
And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru,
not get a mason 33 degree.

Cass

Morten Nymann Olesen &amp;amp;lt;global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&amp;amp;gt; wrote:

Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not
the wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other
Masters.

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message -----
From: mkr777@gmail. com
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says:

"The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of
humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their
weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and
show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward
observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you
but you must put forth all your strength."
===xxx===

MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry?
I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner
thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see
what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy.

I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond to
questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds.

Ramadoss

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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References:
- Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
  - From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@yahoo.com>

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