Theos-Talk Archives (May 2008 Message tt00776)

Pedro,
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" <prmoliveira@...> wrote:

> My point about Hodson was to try and show that there was - and there 
> is - great polarisation within the TS on this issue. Also by equating 
> Theosophy only with its doctrinal aspect we do not do much justice to 
> its mystical or transcendental dimensions. For example, when HPB says 
> in "The Key to Theosophy" that Theosophy is synonymous with 
> Everlasting Truth, do you think she was referring to it as a 
> teaching? I have read that passage many times and every time I read 
> it again it seems to me that she is referring to a Wisdom beyond 
> intellectual formulation - something which is at the very core of 
> existence. Perhaps Krishnamurti was drawing attention to something 
> similar.

Krishnamurti talks about certain state of consciousness. This state
perhaps is the same state which other Theosophists like CWL, AB and
Blavatsky experienced. I think Krishnamurti experienced that state of
consciousness in which he knew that everything and everyone exists in
God, which he calls Truth. According to Besant, a person who knows
this reality by direct experience is true Theosophist. In that sense
Krishnamurti is a Theosophist. 
My objection is not about this state. I believe that this state exists
and K described it well. My objection is K tells people wrong things
in order to reach there. What K tells is one should give up Masters,
path, reading in order to reach the Truth. Practically Truth is not
generally found by giving up Master, path, reading etc. If it was so,
then there are millions of tribal people, who are without any
spiritual background would have known the Truth. Indeed in this world
percentage of people who follow Masters, study religions and
spirituality is very less. Vast majority is not interested in these
things. But this majority does not know truth even if they are already
have un-conditioned mind. That proves that K's method does not work.
If you study spiritual writings done in India, e.g. as given in
Upanishats, Yogavasistha, Jnaneshwari, they tell that knowing God
without Spiritual Master is almost impossible. Indian scriptures
suggest same discipline which Leadbeater writes in Masters and the
Path. In fact Leadbeater gives much more freedom to disciples than
Indian scriptures give. 
When we say Theosophy, we can also consider it as writings given
through the TS by it's leaders like Blavatsky, Besant, Leadbeater,
Arundale, CJ. So we refer Theosophy in different ways. And when I say
Theosophy and Krishnamurti's views are different, I mean his teaching
is different from conventional Theosophy of HPB, AB, CWL, CJ, GSA.

> Please understand that I am not trying to convince you of anything. 
> But just as an exercise in comparison, consider the statements below 
> and see if they don't have a degree of resonance with K's statement 
> above:
> 
> 
> "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will 
> lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke, 9:24)

In this verse Jesus is telling disciples "For whosoever will save his
life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my (Jesus')
sake, the same shall save it." (Luke, 9:24) 
Do you discard the teaching saying that Jesus is creating cult around
him ?
In certain sense Jesus is creating cult. Dictionary meanings of cult
are religion, idolization of somebody or something, religious group.
In reality all religions create cult and also spiritual organizations
create cult. But that is the nature of these things. Krishnamurti's
reaction to cult was due to his personal dislike. I don't think that
all cults are bad. Some bad things can be there in cults, but all
cults per se are not bad. When you are in LCC, you create cult. In
Co-freemasonry also you are obedient to seniors. Does accepting that
authority harm members ? No.
In Indian spiritual writings you will get similar statements about
Master-disciple relationship. 
It appears to me that Krishnamurti's protest against cult was due to
his person disgust of cult. But any good spiritual teacher should not
create philosophy from personal likes and dislikes  and impose it on
the world. Krishnamurti may have disliked the attitude of obedience
among people around him. But he made a mistake by creating philosophy
from that.


> "All of us have to get rid of our own Ego, the illusory apparent 
> self, to recognize our true self in a transcendental divine life."
> 
> (from the Mahachohan, "Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom", first 
> series)

I agree with the quotations from MLs you gave here. And also with
HPB's quotation here.


> I am aware of the differences, but as I said above, there are 
> resonances in core, fundamental princples. 

I accept that Krishnamurti talks about state of consciousness which is
closer to ultimate reality and the same state other great Theosophists
experienced. My objection is K tells many other things and those
things are wrong.
I was born in Brazil, 

> lived in India and now I live in Australia. These three are very 
> different countries, with different cultures, but I can say this, 
> based on my own experience: the human landscape is essentially the 
> same. I could see that very clearly when I attended a cremation in 
> Adyar around 1992. It was my expectation that because Indians were 
> quite familiar with ideas like reincarnation and karma that their 
> attitude towards the death of a loved one would be different. 

Most people in India don't have knowledge of any religion, not even
Hinduism. Gita is very small. But most Indians have not read it even
once in their whole life ! 


> 
> > > I have written an article exploring some similarities between her 
> > > teaching and K's and you may see when it is published. If it is 
> not 
> > > published I could send you a copy of it.

Krishnamurti had asked people not to reconcile his teaching with
Theosophy, because these two were different, according to
Krishnamurti. If you want to reconcile against wishes of Krishnamurti,
others can't stop you.

Please send me the link of Ommen pronoucements of August 1925 
 by Dr Besant, Arundale, Rukmini Devi and several others so that I
will be able to comment on each sentence.

Anand Gholap