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Re: Theos-World Madame Blavatsky and Jiddu Krishnamurti; a conducive "marriage?"

May 12, 2008 11:55 AM
by Augoeides-222

                                             Heart of Prajna Paramita Sutra
                                                  Verses Without A Stand

     When Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva was practicing the profound Prajna Paramita, he illuminated
the five skandas and saw that they are all empty, and he crossed beyond all suffering and difficulty.

     Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness; emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself
is emptiness; emptiness itself is form. So, too , are feeling, cognition, formation, and consciousness.

     Shariputra, all dharmas are empty of characteristics. They are not produced. Not destroyed, not
defiled, not pure, and they neither increase nor diminish.  Therefore, in emptiness there is no form, feeling, cognition, formation, or consciousness; no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, or mind; no sights
, sounds, smells, tastes, objects of touch, or dharmas; no field of the eyes, up to and including no field
of mind consciousness; and no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and 
death or ending of old age and death. There is no suffering, no accumulating, no extinction, no way, 
and no understanding and no attaining.

     Because nothing is attained, the Bodhisattva, through reliance on Prajna Paramita, is unimpeded in his mind, because there is no impediment , he is not afraid, and he leaves distorted dream thinking far behind. Ultimately Nirvana!

     All Buddhas of the three periods of time attain Annutara-Samyaksambhodi through reliance on Prajna paramita. Therefore, know that Prajna Paramita is a Great Spiritual Mantra, a great bright mantra, a supreme mantra, an unequelled mantra. It can remove all suffering; it is genuine and not false. That is why the Mantra of Prajna Paramita was spoken, Recite it like this;

                                       Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha!

                  (The Heart Sutra and Commentary by Tripitiaka Master Hua, BTTS 1980)

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Aryel Sanat <> 

On May 8, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Morten Nymann Olesen wrote:

> To all readers
> My views are:
> Thanks Nigel!
> On J. Krishnamurti:
> I do not understand how J. Krishnamurti can be said to be in 
> support of Esoteric Buddhism and Blavatsky's version of theosophy 
> on the teaching of Master-Chelaship. Krishnamurti rejected guru's 
> and called them a crutch.
> Are you able to explain this?

Dear Morten,

As I pointed out in my introductory statement (documented by the 
two papers with quotes from HPB, which can be found at, 
the purpose of all perennial schools that we know of, was to bring 
about a psychological/spiritual transformation in the candidate. 
Part of what this means is that the hope of these schools & their 
teachers was that a candidate would at some point become himself a 
Master, & would cease to be a candidate. Candidates were not meant 
to be candidates for life, eternal beginners, at least not in this 
sense. There is of course a sense in which learning never stops, & 
in that sense, all of us, including spiritual teachers, are eternal 
beginners. But in the context of a perennial school, a candidate was 
expected to "advance." Otherwise, why have a school?

The chelaship that HPB & her teachers spoke of made reference to the 
old perennial schools (although of course the term "chela" itself 
would not be found in other schools, other words referring to the 
same thing being used).

She & her teachers specifically referred to the fact that there would 
be a new, major-major cycle beginning shortly after her death. She 
used the date 1897 to refer to the beginning of that new, major 
cycle. According to her & her teachers, every time there is a new 
cycle, especially one of this enormous magnitude, there is a teacher 
who provides what KH called "the keynote teaching" for that new era. 
(Incidentally, this is the origin of the notion of a "new age" 
beginning at this time, which had its source in HPB & her teachers, 
though the majority of humanity seem to be totally ignorant of this 
fact.) HPB & her teachers could have been mistaken about this. If 
you think they were mistaken, then we'll just agree to disagree on 
this point. It's a rather important point, however, since, according 
to a number of statements they made, HPB's teachers seemed to 
consider this the main reason why the TS was founded.

As I understand it, K was addressing himself not to people still 
attached to the old way of conducting business in perennial schools, 
but to people engaged somehow in a state of being in harmony with the 
cycle now beginning. He was addressing himself to the new 
consciousness. For anyone paying attention to what's been happening 
in the world since the founding of the TS, that new consciousness has 
been flowering in recent times. It is a consciousness that does not 
seem to have existed before these times. Part of what I mean is that 
all humans are now forced to see themselves as integral components of 
humanity. In the past, it was almost a given that people attached 
themselves to the culture they were born to. In that environment, it 
was far more difficult for perennial teachers to teach 
transformation, & so they did the best they could, even though the 
people they were trying to teach found it difficult to grasp that 
there was one humanity, & universal virtues not dependent on their 
particular conditioning. This may be a major reason why both HPB & 
her teachers in their letters spoke of how all previous perennial 
attempts had been "failures," & why sometimes they spoke of the TS 
with skepticism.

In any case, you speak of "Esoteric Buddhism" in the question you 
raise. To my knowledge, esoteric Buddhism is exclusively associated 
with the Vajrayana of Tibet, so I take it that this is the Buddhism 
you're referring to, especially since you speak of "chelaship." The 
Prime Minister of Tibet in Exile, who is the Dalai Lama's right hand 
man, & considered the second spiritually as well in the Tibetan 
hierarchy, is a TS member & also involved with the Krishnamurti 
Foundation of India, so I can think of no one better to address your 
concerns regarding K. Rinpoche made a remarkable statement relevant 
to your question. You can see him making this statement in the 
partly biographical film on video Krishnamurti: With a Silent Mind.

Rinpoche explains how the Buddha spoke at two levels, the "level of 
the people," and the "level of the prajnaparamita." Then he said 
that "Krishnaji spoke only at the level of the prajnaparamita," & 
that he, Rinpoche, could see no difference at all between K & the 
Buddha, whenever the latter was speaking at the level of prajnaparamita.

If you read the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra, which is only about one 
page long and is the foundation text for all of Mahayana Buddhism 
(including the Vajrayana of Tibet), you will see that it has an 
uncanny similarity with the starting stanzas of the Stanzas of 
Dzyan. It says, in part (D.T. Suzuki's translation, in Essays in Zen 
Buddhism, vol. 3, p 223),

"[In deep prajnaparamita] all things are characterized with 
emptiness; they are not born, they are not annihilated; they are not 
tainted, they are not immaculate; they do not increase, they do not 
decrease... [I]n emptiness there is no form, no sensation, no 
thought, no confection, no consciousness, no... path, no knowledge, 
no attainment, and no realization... All the Buddhas of the past, 
present, and future, depending on the Prajnaparamita, attain to the 
highest perfect enlightenment."

In such theosophical states of awareness there is no guru & no disciple.

Please consider that when the Buddha himself was in his deathbed & 
surrounded by thousands of monks & lay people, he was asked to give 
them his final words. They wished for him to summarize briefly the 
essence of what he'd been saying for decades. The historic statement 
that he made was (this is from memory, so consider it a paraphrase):

"Seek out your own salvation, with diligence. Buddhas do but point 
the way."

In other words, the function of the best possible teacher is "to 
point." Then, after that teacher "points," it's 100% up to you what 
will happen. If you decide to "continue messing up," the teacher has 
nothing to do with that. It's your life, not his.

Intriguingly, this is precisely what K said all along is the function 
of a teacher. If you are truly interested in seeing what he actually 
said (as opposed to accepting rumor & innuendo from people who have 
not taken the trouble to find out for themselves), a good place to 
look into is the discussion on the subject of gurus that he had with 
Swami Venkatesananda on July 25, 1969, & which can be found in The 
Awakening of Intelligence, beginning on page 139. Here is part of 
what he actually said:

"Sir, if you are using the word guru in the classical sense, which is 
the dispeller of darkness, of ignorance, can another, whatever he be, 
enlightened or stupid, really help to dispel this darkness in 
oneself? Suppose 'A' is ignorant and you are his guru --- guru in 
the accepted sense, one who dispels darkness and one who carries the 
burden for another, one who points out --- can such a guru help 
another? --- not theoretically but actually. Can you, if you are the 
guru of so and so, dispel his darkness, dispel the darkness for 
another? Knowing that he is unhappy, confused, has not enough brain 
matter, has not enough love, or sorrow, can you dispel that? Or has 
he to work tremendously on himself? You may point out, you may say, 
'Look, go through that door,' but he has to do the work entirely from 
the beginning to the end. Therefore, you are not a guru in the 
accepted sense of that word, if you say that another cannot help... 
But I have to walk [through] there. Sir, you are the guru and you 
point out the door. You have finished your job."

If K was mistaken about the function of a guru, the function of a 
spiritual teacher consisting of just "pointing out," then the Buddha 
--- & therefore all of Buddhism --- is equally mistaken about this. 
That's not a theory. As you can see, it's just the way it is.

The problem comes, as I see it, from wild notions people have 
developed about gurus & spiritual teachers in general. They make the 
amazingly silly assumption that someone else can somehow take care of 
your lack of wisdom, or compassion, or whatever. Unfortunately, 
there ain't no free lunch, and the fact is, "You have to work out 
your own salvation, with diligence. Buddhas do but point the way."

What needs to be corrected, then, is people's reckless notions about 
teachers, which continue to be fed by a cottage industry of such 
presumed teachers, & by people's spiritual laziness. These teachers 
would give any kind of thing you tell them that you lack. They'll do 
it for a fee, of course.

But when we're talking about theosophy, about the esoteric teaching 
as it has always been, everywhere, you have to get ready to die to 
the known, to your attachments, to your beliefs.

If you're not ready, that's nothing to be ashamed of. As Clint 
poignantly put it in one of the Dirty Harry movies, "A man ought to 
know his limitations." The majority of us are in that boat. In that 
case, perhaps the best you can do is to pursue Theosophy, which is 
the exoteric aspect of all perennial schools. In that case, you'll 
be content with believing in various "Theosophical" things, & in 
trying to live your life as well as you can, in terms of those 
beliefs. Because of the universality of Theosophy, that way of 
living is bound to be "better" than the common beliefs held by people 
who belong to a particular religion and/or follow some cultural or 
ethnic beliefs. It will perhaps, in the best of cases, eventually 
make it easier for you to see for yourself the dangerous folly 
implicit in having attachments & making distinctions (such as race, 
creed, caste, & so on).

But in that case, you are a Theosophist, not a theosophist. It's 
nothing bad at all. But let's call a spade a spade. Otherwise, we'd 
be confused, & spread confusion, unnecessarily.

K was a theosophist's theosophist, someone engaged completely in the 
kind of lifestyle outlined in the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra. You 
may disagree, of course. In that case, please send your complaint to 



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