Theos-Talk Archives (March 2008 Message tt00255)

Richard, people in glass houses, should not throw stones as the old saying goes.  I am not an American and I am totally unfamiliar with your constitution, but I was referrring to Free Speech not the freedom of religious beliefs.  The freedom of religious beliefs were made at a time when there was only two religions operating in the west, christianity and protestanism. Salem showed that religious beliefs were strictly christian beliefs.
   
  For the record, I do not support China's actions in Tibet, as much as I do not support the horrors perpetrated by the christian settlers on the American Indians.  But there is no hypocricy with the Chinese, they do not hide behind a constitution that is constantly set up as the ideal and at the same time flagrantly crushes those ideals. 
   
  Cass
  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
   
  After World War I, several cases involving laws limiting speech came before the Supreme Court. The Espionage Act of 1917 imposed a maximum sentence of twenty years for anyone who caused or attempted to cause "insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty in the military or naval forces of the United States." Under the Act, over two thousand prosecutions were commenced. For instance, one filmmaker was sentenced to ten years imprisonment because his portrayal of British soldiers in a movie about the American Revolution impugned the good faith of an American ally, the United Kingdom. The Sedition Act of 1918 went even further, criminalizing "disloyal," "scurrilous" or "abusive" language against the government.
  in 1968, the Court upheld a law prohibiting the mutilation of draft cards in United States v. O'Brien 391 U.S. 367 (1968). The Court ruled that protesters could not burn draft cards because doing so would interfere with the "smooth and efficient functioning" of the draft system. Then again, in 1971, the court found that a person could not be punished for wearing, in the corridors of the Los Angeles county Courthouse, a jacket reading "Fuck the Draft," Cohen v. California (403 U.S. 15).
  In 1969, the Supreme Court ruled that free speech rights extended to students in school while deciding Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black arm-bands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote, "schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students...are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State." The decision was arguably overruled, or at least undermined, by Bethel School District v. Fraser 478 U.S. 675 (1986), in which the Court held a student could be punished for his speech before a public assembly.
  Also in 1969, the Court decided the landmark Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) , which overruled Whitney v. California 274 U.S. 357 (1927), a case in which a woman was imprisoned for aiding the Communist Party. Brandenburg effectively swept away Dennis as well, casting the right to speak freely of violent action and revolution in broad terms: "[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." Some claim that Brandenburg essentially sets forth a reworded "clear and present danger" test, but the accuracy of such statements is hard to judge. The Court has never heard or decided a case involving seditious speech since Brandenburg was handed down.
  The federal government and the states have long been permitted to restrict obscenity or pornography. While obscenity generally has no protection under the First Amendment, pornography is subject to little regulation. The exact definition of obscenity and pornography, however, has changed over time.
  When it decided Rosen v. United States in 1896, the Supreme Court adopted the same obscenity standard as had been articulated in a famous British case, Regina v. Hicklin. The Hicklin standard defined material as obscene if it tended "to deprave or corrupt those whose minds are open to such immoral influences, and into whose hands a publication of this sort may fall." In 1957, the Court ruled in Roth v. United States that the Hicklin test was inappropriate. Instead, the Roth test for obscenity was "whether to the average person, applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the material, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest."
  In 1964 Justice Potter Stewart, in Jacobellis v. Ohio, famously stated that, although he could not precisely define pornography, "I know it when I see it."
   
     
   

Richard Semock <semockr@hotmail.com> wrote:

          If you are refering to the 1st amendment right in the US 
constitution, your proposal would be a poor test of it. It falls into 
the class of endangering speech such as crying fire! in a crowded 
ballet performance and would not be deemed a freedom. 

Now if you want to say something like this to the CCP potentates in 
Tibet, then that would be another matter entirely and one worthy of 
support.

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> We can test the 'ideal' or notion of freedom of speech, by telling 
a Judge or a Policemen to get f*****.
> Cass
> 
> Drpsionic@... wrote:
> It's an ideal that has the force of law behind it in the 
US.? If an athlete is actually disciplined by the US Olympic 
committee, he can probably sue for consipiracy to violate his civil 
rights and given the way the courts rule in such matters, collect 
significant damages.
> 
> We upset the apple cart all the time around here.
> 
> Chuck the Heretic
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 7:08 pm
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> 
> So much for freedom of speech eh! My mother told me years ago that 
freedom of speech is just an ideal, it doesn't exist in the real 
world. It's a nice idea but upset the apple cart and you will be 
regarded as a bad apple and dealt with appropriately. The ideal of 
national security has taken away all our personal freedoms. We have a 
new nose on an old face, democracy mimicking communism. Democracy 
invents a reason, doesn't matter if it is true or false, communism 
promised a better way of life. 
> 
> Cass
> 
> Cass
> 
> Drpsionic@... wrote:
> 
> The IOC has placed restrictions on what the athletes can say at 
olympic events, however, at least as far as the US is concerned, I 
would not be surprised if Congress passes a bill forbidding the US 
olympic committee from enforcing any restrictions on what US athletes 
might say in protest and that would also block any disciplinary 
action by the IOC as well as the US olympic committee would have to 
enforce those.
> 
> Chuck the Heretic
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 9:17 pm
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> 
> Come to think of it, very little advertising in Australia this year 
for the Olympics. 
> Cass
> 
> Drpsionic@... wrote:
> No, they wouldn't change the location now, but it would certainly 
make life interesting for the IOC.? By the way, my wife has noticed 
something.? Normally the companies that sponsor the games use that in 
their advertising, usually at the tail end of their commercials with 
the olympic logo.? Not this year.? They are not mentioning it at all, 
which means that the sponsors?are already losing money.
> 
> Chuck the Heretic
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 4:38 am
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> 
> It won't happen Chuck, too much money invested. They could ban 
China and reschedule the games back to Greece, but that won't happen.
> Not taking any sides but I heard on the news that inflation is now 
running at 9 percent in Tibet and the people are struggling 
economically, on the good side, their health and education has been 
improved since chinese occupation, life mortality is up apparently, 
but I suppose its no good living longer if you dont have the money to 
feed yourself.
> 
> Cass
> 
> Drpsionic@... wrote:
> 
> China believes that Tibet is a part of China.? 
> 
> China is an interesting country in that it actually does not have a 
history expansionism after the Mongols, but it does claim an interest 
in certain contiguous territories.
> 
> Now, conventional protests don't work on the Chinese.? They have 
skins almost as thick as American conservatives and they just don't 
give a damn.? But they are sensitive to certain things and while the 
IOC is not going to cancel its games, the IOC can be made to pay for 
having them in China, or rather its sponsors can.? Now this is really 
out of my field of knowledge, but if a major boycott of Olympic 
sponsors could be organized...
> 
> Chuck the Heretic
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 6:06 pm
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> 
> I am curious to know why China would be interested in Tibet. It's 
not as though the country would ever be a threat to China, it's not 
as though they have minerals or oil, perhaps the only threat is that 
the Chinese fear that Tibetinism will spread to the Mainland, who 
knows? If Karma is involved Morten, I suspect that Tibet is also 
dealing with its national karma as well as China.
> 
> Cass
> 
> Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
> 
> To all readers
> 
> To all readers
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Now, what is going on?
> 
> Are China facing the Law of Karma?
> 
> Tibet gripped by violent clashes
> 
> a.. Jonathan Watts in Beijing 
> 
> b.. guardian.co.uk, 
> 
> c.. Friday March 14 2008
> 
> d.. Article history
> 
> About this article
> 
> Close 
> 
> This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Friday March 
14 2008. It was last updated at 14:56 on March 14 2008.
> 
> Tibetans throw stones at Chinese army vehicles in Lhasa as violent 
protests against Chinese rule break out. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images
> 
> The Tibetan capital of Lhasa was on the brink of chaos today as the 
fiercest anti-government protests in almost 20 years erupted into 
violence between Chinese security forces and protesters wielding iron 
bars.
> 
> A radio station reported at least two people had been killed in the 
rioting. The US-funded Radio Free Asia quoted two witnesses as saying 
two bodies were seen lying on the ground in the Barkor area, a 
shopping district where protests had been particularly fierce.
> 
> Armed police used water cannons and teargas on the crowds, and 
witnesses say security vehicles were set on fire and Chinese drivers 
were carried off with bloodied faces after being beaten by a mob of 
young Tibetans.
> 
> The US embassy in Beijing said its citizens in Lhasa had reported 
gunshots being fired in the city. The embassy emailed an advisory 
note to Americans warning them to stay away from the city, now in its 
fifth day of anti-Chinese protests.
> 
> The Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibet's Buddhists, urged 
China not to use violence to quell the protests, which he called "a 
manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people 
under the present governance".
> 
> "I therefore appeal to the Chinese leadership to stop using force 
and address the long-simmering resentment of the Tibetan people 
through dialogue with the Tibetan people," he said in a statement.
> 
> The EU and the White House also issued statements urging China to 
show restraint.
> 
> Coming just months before the start of the 2008 Olympics, the 
protests against Beijing rule threaten to overshadow preparations for 
the games.
> 
> A resident told the Guardian that he heard an explosion and around 
10 shots every minute at one point, but thought it was teargas rather 
than bullets being fired because he saw people running from plumes of 
smoke and covering their mouths.
> 
> "I am too afraid to go out," the source, who asked to remain 
anonymous, said. "It is chaos out there."
> 
> The source, who is from the Chinese Han ethnic group, said he saw 
Tibetans attack two fire engines.
> 
> "I saw Tibetans throwing stones at the vehicles. They dragged 
drivers from vehicles, took off their uniforms and helmets, then beat 
them.
> 
> "The chanting mob beat up around five or six drivers who had to be 
carried away with blood on their faces ... then they put a motorbike 
under the fire engine and set fire to it so the engine was burned."
> 
> The report was difficult to confirm. The Chinese government has yet 
to make a statement, and communications with the tightly-controlled 
Himalayan region are difficult even during calm periods.
> 
> A blogger who writes from Lhasa under the name Beifang described 
the violence on his blog.
> 
> "Police cars and fire engines were outside smashed and burned. A 
lot of Tibetans ran towards Dazhao [Jokhang] temple. I heard 
gunshots. Five army police vehicles drove that way. A large number of 
armed police followed. A few people with blood on their faces were 
taken away."
> 
> Tibetan support groups overseas said they were hearing reports of a 
fire and protests near the Tromsikhang market near the Jokhang temple 
in central Lhasa.
> 
> According to the Free Tibet campaign, there were also protests 
today in the Labrang monastery in Gansu province, where 200 monks led 
demonstrations on the streets. The group said this showed the 
protests were gathering momentum.
> 
> The AFP news agency said one of its reporters saw monks leading a 
crowd of around 300 people near the monastery, one of the most 
important in Tibetan Buddhism.
> 
> Since the first protest by monks on Monday, thousands of armed 
police have locked down monasteries in and around Lhasa. Witnesses 
said today's protesters were mostly lay Tibetans.
> 
> China's Xinhua news agency reported that shops had been set on fire 
in Lhasa but gave no other details. 
> 
> The International Campaign for Tibet said two monks at the Sera 
monastery had stabbed themselves and others had gone on hunger strike.
> 
> About a dozen monks were reportedly detained on Monday, when 
several hundred from the Sera and Drepung monasteries took to the 
streets to mark the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising against 
Beijing. Similar protests took place in the Ganden and Lutsang 
monasteries in Qinghai (known in Tibetan as Amdo) where hundreds of 
monks reportedly chanted slogans calling for their exiled leader, the 
Dalai Lama, to return.
> 
> The upsurge in activism comes amid growing frustration with the 
lack of progress in talks between representatives of the Dalai Lama 
and Beijing.
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
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