Theos-Talk Archives (February 2008 Message tt00400)

Dear Frank

Thank you again for your response.

You may recall, this discussion arose primarily 
from the quote by Mr Govert Schuller:
"Besides its three official objects, the mission 
of the Theosophical Society was to prepare the 
world for the coming of a great spiritual teacher, 
expected in the last quarter of the 20th century."
http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html

As stated now many times, from my perspective I do 
not agree with his emphasis on "?prepare the world 
for the coming of a great spiritual teacher?" 


Frank you ask, "What do you mean by appearance in 
human form? Do they usually appear in animal form?"

Ha:) Perhaps not.

My meaning was that the masters' ongoing work as 
I understand it, does not necessarily require 
their physical presence, and to focus on this, 
or even themselves as distinct entities, can 
preclude us from recognising their multitudinous 
array of work.

Regards
Nigel



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@...> 
wrote:
>
> Nigel:
> 
> Perhaps it's our usage of English, which is making
> our concepts difficult to understand each other's
> position, because what you have written above is
> not what I have said.
> ------------------------------
> Frank:
> 
> Indeed, I need to improve my English.
> Your answer shows me the (my?) misunderstandings.
> 
> ------------------------------
> Nigel:
> 
> Please simply state what you believe to be your
> evidence.
> ------------------------------
> 
> Frank:
> 
> I never believed to have an evidence.
> So I kindly asked you, what would you accept as evidence?
> So perhaps I can give you this evidence.
> What is your evidence, say, that Masters really exist?
> 
> ------------------------------
> Nigel:
> 
> My perspective remains, until proven otherwise,
> that whilst Madame Blavatsky wrote about the
> potential for coming teachers, she always couched
> it in terms of "if" such as, "And if her place is
> even filled up, perchance by another worthier and
> more learned than herself, still there remain but
> a few years to the last hour of the term -- namely,
> till December the 31st, 1899."
> "First Preliminary Memorandum" issued Madame
> Blavatsky in 1888 to the members of the E.S.
> 
> Here she clearly wasn't speaking in terms of a
> fait accompli despite what other commentators might
> assume and write with such authority.
> In previous posts I have provided other examples of
> quotes from Madame Blavatsky supporting this contention.
> 
> Even Dr Purucker writes, "As she herself points out
> in substance: someone will follow me in all likelihood."
> 
> Even from him, note his qualifiers, "in substance"
> thereby not referring to a direct quote. And, "in
> all likelihood". Once again, not conclusively
> predictive.
> 
> ------------------------------
> Frank:
> 
> I again do not understand what your problem is.
> What do you mean by "even Dr Purucker writes", as if it is 
something 
> strange, what he said.
> It's the most logic thing he said.
> 
> HPB came to do certain work.
> But the success, or the degree of success, depended on the growth 
of the 
> souls of her co-workers.
> So no conclusively predictive was possible, at least publicly, 
because for 
> every soul there are always two paths and HPB had no right to 
suppress the 
> free will.
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Nigel:
> 
> We can hide behind the veil of esotericism as
> our presumed authority, but this runs the real
> and actual risk of people assuming that HPB
> stated that a master would definitely appear
> before 1899 and again in 1975.
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Frank:
> 
> To me it's quite the other way round:
> esotericism is the only real world of which I know of.
> HPB never stated that a master would definitely appear before 1899, 
because 
> it depended of the karma of her co-workers.
> Were all her chelas fallen like Annie Besant, no Master would have 
appeared 
> before 1899.
> But not all her chelas were fallen, several stood the test, like 
Henry T. 
> Edge (for example).
> But that does not mean that she did not work towards this 
possibility and 
> was merely in a wait and see position.
> 
> In 1888 or 1889 she asked her closest co-worker William Judge, 
whether he 
> has found his new chela or not.
> Judge also confirms that he several times has discussed with (the 
then still 
> incarnated) HPB about the new hope, the new paraclete and that she 
knew that 
> this new chela would build in teh West a theosophical school as so 
fulfill 
> HPB's highest dreams, a task, which she was handicapped to fulfill.
> 
> But if the situation had taken place, that all her chelas went away 
or 
> became untrue, no paraclete would have appeared and no school had 
build.
> And "they" had to wait until 1975, because in every last quarter of 
a 
> century a messenger of the Masters appears in the West since Tsong-
kha-pa.
> I call it the outer messengers in analogy to outer rounds.
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Nigel:
> 
> This thereby creates the potential for messianic
> mindset and preparation such as occurred from some
> of the "later messengers" including Bishop Leadbeater
> and Dr Besant of the Theosophical Society, Adyar.
> 
> Messianic mindset and preparation, or preparation of
> any kind, produces blind followers and devotees, and
> creates the potential for authority figures who claim
> to "know."
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Frank:
> 
> True, but that obviously did not prevent the Masters to send one of 
theirs 
> to the West in the last quarter.
> And again, I think that Adyar has learned its lesson on cant about 
Masters.
> So the result is that most theosophists did not recognize around 
1975 the 
> new torchbearer of truth.
> 
> That many false messiahs come does not mean that not also a true 
messiah 
> comes, don't?
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Nigel:
> 
> From my perspective, we need be particularly careful to clearly
> distinguish between the ongoing work and manifestations of the
> masters of the wisdom, which they themselves verify, and setting any
> actual predictive dates of their putative physical appearance in
> human form.
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> Frank:
> 
> Ongoing work... a good idea.
> Most leading theosophist in Middle Europe I know of believe that 
all 
> theosophical work was already done by HPB and we may rest now (they 
will 
> rest for themselves, they will not HPB's rest).
> 
> I never heard of any pukka theosophist giving predictive dates 
about 
> masters.
> What do you mean by appearance in human form?
> 
> Do they usually appear in animal form?
> 
> 
> Also from my perspective, we need be particularly careful not to put
> words into the mouth of Madame Blavatsky, which she didn't actually
> write.
> She did not write that there would be appearances, only that there
> may be, either before, or not before a particular date, and even 
then
> subject to particular criteria.
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Nigel wrote:
> > --------------------------------
> > Dear Frank
> >
> > Thank you again for your response.
> >
> > You write, "I don't get your point.
> > What makes you so sure to know what HPB has planed
> > in 1875?"
> >
> > Actually I have not been shown conclusive evidence
> > that she planned anything at all in terms of
> > preparing, ".the world for the coming of a great
> > spiritual teacher expected in the last quarter of
> > the 20th century in 1975" for reasons already stated.
> >
> > She carried out the work intended for her and suggested
> > the above may occur subject to criteria already stated.
> > --------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > Dear Nigel,
> > me thought, you were quiet sure that HPB had no plans in 1875 for
> future
> > work of successive messengers.
> > --------------------------------
> > Nigel wrote:
> > You write, "when HPB wrote about him in 1888, he was
> > already there."
> >
> > Can you please supply credible evidence to support
> > this contention?
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > Possibly. That depends on some conditions.
> > I need to now, what you would accept as evidence.
> > Also I need to know whether you accept the occult office of a
> messenger to
> > the Masters.
> > We are talking here about esoteric matters and thinks are 
difficult.
> > --------------------------------
> > Nigel wrote:
> >
> > You write, "HPB used the term "send", which is a
> > flexible term and a blind, too. She says here that
> > the karmic ring or connection between her and her
> > successor is done and it depends of the karma of
> > the theosophists and TS, whether the new teacher
> > is "send" or made known."
> >
> > Can you also please supply credible evidence to support
> > these contentions?
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > Perhaps Purucker's hints about the insignia majestatis will be of
> help:
> > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/teachers/te-gdp7.htm
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Nigel wrote:
> > You write, "That he intermixes the occult status
> > and titles of the persons mentioned is also clear.
> > That people have wrong pictures in mind is not the
> > fault of HPB. Therefore she was careful with her
> > statements, so much, that she is not understood,
> > except perhaps by those, who it may concern."
> >
> > Once again can you kindly provide credible evidence
> > for this?
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > It's self-evident. HPB's discussion of the work of a messenger of
> 1897 and
> > the work of the 1975 messenger are logically two different things.
> > I don't know what is so difficult to understand.
> > --------------------------------
> > Nigel wrote:
> > Frank with respect, you write with quite adamant
> > authority. You often claim that some of us have
> > wrong perspectives whilst providing little hard
> > evidence of a credible nature to me to support
> > your contentions. I hope you might be able to do
> > so on this occasion.
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > Really!!??
> > Perhaps I need to brush up my English.
> > I just share with all open-minded students the results of my 
study.
> > These results are personal opinion.
> > You or Morten or others have other opinions.
> > If I think, they are wrong, I speak out.
> > You have given me also no hard evidence that HPB did not work for
> her
> > succeccors and the 1975 messenger.
> > And I wonder which evidence I could give you, while the living and
> the work
> > of our great ones speaks for themselves.
> > Should I send you a certificate, singed by a President of a TS, in
> which is
> > stated: "Yes, Frank is right, HPB did prepatory work for the 1975
> messenger.
> > And yes, Frank is also right, that the 1897 messenger is not
> identical with
> > the 1975 messenger?"
> >
>