Theos-Talk Archives (February 2008 Message tt00301)

can you re-post what walter wrote about S Baba.

mkr

On 2/23/08, Noel vasco <nenqueteba2000@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
>
> Hi, all.
>
> This is what Walter A. Carrithers wrote about S. Baba
>
> See you
>
> ----- Mensaje original ----
> De: Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@online.de <dzyan%40online.de>>
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Enviado: sábado 23 de febrero de 2008, 20:27:39
> Asunto: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
>
> Morten,
> I think we can only agree that we not agree.
> I wonder whether my English is too bad or yours.
> Perhaps you are not much experienced in getting the content of a text?
>
> You now quote HPB about the POSSIBLY situation of the TS in the last
> quarter
> of the 20th century.
> So what?
> Everyone, who has studied a little bit the history of the Theosophical
> Movement, knows that the development in the 20th century was quite
> different
> from that picture HPB here gives.
> The reason is that the future is not determinated, there are always at
> least
> two ways.
> The majority of theosophists decided by "free will" (so to speak), not to
> support the Masters.
>
> The result was the withdrawal back of Masters work from the public (only
> some Mahatma articles here and there in The Theosophical Forum during the
> 1920'ies and 1930'ies), the withdrawal of the Headquarters, the withdrawal
>
> of the higher degrees, the withdrawal of the messengers - end of 1942 five
>
> messengers of the White Lodge were withdrawn by return because of the
> development in the outer world. Fake messengers appear and try the lay
> chelas. They fail, and the withdrawal continues.
>
> Purucker appealed to his pupils that they take care that the link must be
> unbroken, and if it is ever broken, they must all to recover the link.
> Do you think the theosophist from 1945 onwards until today have stood the
> test?
> Have you personally stood the test?
> I fear, most of the theosophists are too proud to think about failure and
> Masters plan.
> Most do not even understand, what a messenger is and how the Masters work
> in
> the outer world, otherwise would be not so much poppycock and cant around
> about Masters and Mahatmas as a replacement church-Christ.
>
> You intermix several things in the varoius quotes of HPB.
> The 1975 messenger is not the messenger, which had to bring irrefutable
> proof of the gupta vidya.
>
> You would not intermix different things if you would get the idea of
> Masters
> work in the West.
> That you claim not to stick on forms, alters not the fact that you seem
> not
> to understand this work, even when one tries to explain it to you.
>
> >But of course if you are right a spiritual outpouring coming from the
> >Masters will only affect a very few persons.
>
> The problem of the great ones is, to find enough co-workers, which are
> ready
> by heart, that means who can think for themselves and whose word and deed
> is
> the same thing.
> Theosophy is for the masses, quite clear.
>
> But in the beginning of the discussion we were talking about the 20th
> century messenger, who brought the proofs of the gupta-vidya.
> It's not the masses, who are able to bring this proofs, because they have
> no
> knowledge, no training and no experience.
>
> Did you know that one TS (and another non-theosophical organization in
> Germany) had a working group, which traveled around the world to old
> places?
>
> Spirituality has also nothing to do with numbers. A strange idea. Does Sai
>
> Baba say so?
> BTW, what would be Sai Baba's proofs?
> It's certainly not a theosophical idea and has obviously no rational
> basis.
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 9:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
>
> To all readers
>
> My views are:
>
> There is - one more - quote from HPB about what will happen in the years
> after 1975.
> I think with an organisation awaiting his arrival as HPB puts it in the
> below, - one will have to stop believeing it to be the fact, that the
> number
> of persons involved in this are more than a few science intellectuals:
>
> "...that during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is made
>
> by those "Masters," of whom I have spoken, to help on the spiritual
> progress
> of Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each
> century
> you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality --
>
> or call it mysticism if you prefer -- has taken place. Some one or more
> persons have appeared in the world as their agents, and a greater or less
> amount of occult knowledge and teaching has been given out. If you care to
>
> do so, you can trace these movements back, century by century, as far as
> our
> detailed historical records extend...If the present attempt, in the form
> of
> our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will
>
> be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time 307
>
> comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's
> minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its
>
> teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions
> will
> have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a
> large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse
> will
> find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new
> torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his
> message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he
> brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely
>
> mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how
> much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could accomplish. Measure
> it
> by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in
> the last fourteen years, without any of these advantages and surrounded by
>
> hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all
> this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the
> Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its
> original
> impulses through the next hundred years? Tell me, I say, if I go too far
> in
> asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in
> comparison with what it is now!
> (H. P. Blavatsky's book "Key to Theosophy", s. 306-7. English edition,
> Italics added.)
>
> So HPB said in the above: "Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity
>
> is given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the
> Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years,
> without any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances
> which
> would not hamper the new leader."
>
> So I guess I will just have to disagree with you about the importance of
> the
> numbers who receives the message Frank. I think it is not just me, who
> talk
> about it. As we can see HPB also did it. A high initiate will exactly be
> able to deliver a message about truth and theosophy, and will be able to
> reach thousands and tens of thousands with the proper message.
>
> But of course if you are right a spiritual outpouring coming from the
> Masters will only affect a very few persons.
> Some how I find my self disagreeing with this view.
>
> Frank wrote:
> "You stick to much in forms rather than ideas."
>
> I am afraid you misunderstand, what I am talking about.
> I am exactly sticking to "ideas" or rather what we call "spiritual
> impact".
> The level of "spiritual impact" are always related to the number of
> persons
> affected by the impact.
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank Reitemeyer
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
>
> Morten,
> I will not disturb your comfort and your conviction that you are right,
> but
> to answer your additional question:
> We do not talk about for how many persons the ultimate proofs were given.
> It's just you. To me it's not important. HPB did not write about
> quantities.
> Important is that this proofs were given.
> I believe this predicted proofs are connected with the guruparampara,
> which
> was launched by HPB.
> You may consider the first aim of the TS: To form a nucleus, not to form a
> crowd as much as possible.
>
> As to the intellectual and spiritual level: This group of persons
> obviously
> cannot be very big, because most people were not fit.
> Not even in the broad Theosophical Movement many theosophists were (and so
> until today) ready.
> There are lineages within the TM which would even reject that there were
> other messengers than HPB.
> Most people - including theosophical circles - do not even understand the
> newspaper.
>
> So what would they gain when they would hear of a knowledge far advanced
> from their own point of view?
> So, logically, it could only be few. Even HPB's last book of the Golden
> rules is dedicated to the few.
> What then about teachings which go beyond that book?
> What does it matter, to how many people the proofs were given?
> I think you simply did not understand my opinion about the Masters plan.
>
> You stick to much in forms rather than ideas.
>
> Although only few theosophists may be ready, there may be probably some
> out
> there who think about 2075.
> Best
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
>
> I understand, that I was to be given such an answer to my questions.
> I will rest in comfort, that my views are most likely true.
>
> You could consider the following questions and then consider why I
> answered
> like I did:
> If one is to give others irrefutable proof of Gupta Vidya, who would they
> be?
> How many persons are we at least talking about? And what kind of proof
> would
> be required so we could call it irrefutable?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank Reitemeyer
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World - Fools rush in
>
> 1.
> Frank wrote:
> "So, from the logic point of view, HPB was refering to her occult
> successor
> in the Tibeto-Dzyan- transmission line."
>
> That is not logic. That was not what H. P. Blavatsky said.
> H. P. Blavatsky said: "In Century the Twentieth some disciple more
> informed,
> and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final
> and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya"
>
> That is "irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called
> Gupta-Vidya" .
> This proof would be given by a disciple more informed and far better
> fitted,
> than who? Logically a person more informed and better fitted Than H. P.
> Blavatsky herself. And that is why such a person much likely would be
> known
> to the public, and not a person whom only a very few would learn about!
> This is a more likely view than the one you prefer to emphasise.
> What "irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya"
> are
> better than to show people it all through action and to be an example to
> tohers?
>
> ------------ --------- --------- -
>
> Morten,
> yes, the disciple would be more informed and better fitted than Blavatsky,
> therefore she could have been meant the 1975 messenger, but rather a chela
> in the gurparampara.
> As you can see, you have missed be point, for I was refering to that logic
> before, the logic which you reject and at the same time you admit it.
>
> But HPB never said, that and how much this disciple which would be send to
> the West, would be known to the public. That is but your - unbased -
> interpretation, not HPB's meaning.
>
> She also says nothing about the quantity of people who could learn from
> it.
> That is your - unbased - interpretation, too.
>
> And I am sorry to say, that HPB does not say anything about the time frame
> she had in mind. It can be relatively few people from the time of getting
> started, but in the course of time - and Masters think in centuries, a
> mantra GdeP always used - after decades or centuries the quantity could
> grow
> much from such a nucleus. So, it's but your interpretation, too.
>
> HPB writes only that this proofs will be given, she gives no time line for
> publication. She hints rather to a time capsule.
>
> ------------ --------- --------- -
>
> 2.
> Frank wrote:
> "Sai Baba may be a fine teacher for some people, but he is certainly not
> trained in the Dzyan school and therefore no messenger of the Dzyan and
> Masters and Wisdom and Peace."
>
> You claim a lot here. Do you know who Sathya Sai Baba is?
> What are you basing your views in the above on?
> Why should your view be given any validity at all?
> ------------ --------- --------- -
>
> I claim nothing. I just share my opinion with you.
> My view has only the validity someone gives.
> You are free to believe what you want.
> I do the same.
>
> Best
> Frank
>
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>
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>
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> 
>


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