Theos-Talk Archives (February 2008 Message tt00201)

Dear Morten

Illustrative story, thank you.

Regards
Nigel

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Your answer reminded me of something.
> And I wonder why, but here it is in the below. It was an email I 
posted in 2005 at this place.
> 
> 
> - - - - - - -
> I will throw in a short story, which Idries Shah offers in his book
> "Learning how to Learn".
> I have made few minor change to it.
> 
> 
> HOW CAN ONE METHOD BE AS GOOD AS ANOTHER?
> 
> Q: What you have said about the same person, or the same group of 
people,
> being able to employ entirely different techniques to achive the 
same object
> interests me. But how can one method be as good as another?
> 
> A: Let us think analogically. If a house is on fire, two ladders 
may be
> propped against one window. Both lead to the ground. The different 
colours of the paint on
> them may obscure the fact that they are ladders.
> 
> Q: But how do we know that EITHER is a ladder (= a method)?
> 
> A: You know by learning to recognise a ladder when you see one.
> 
> Q: How is that done?
> 
> A: By familiarising yourself with ladders.
> 
> Q: And climbing ladders?
> 
> A: While you are learning recognition, climb them as a part of it.
> 
> Q: But some people insist that there only is one ladder, their own.
> 
> A: They are right, if they are only saying that to focus attention 
on a
> specific escape-ladder as an instrument. If it works, it is 
equivalent to being the only true one.
> For practical purposes, it is.
> 
> Q: Are they right under any other circumstances?
> 
> A: Seldom, because if they really were right they would teach
> not "There is only this ladder", but "Look at all these ladders; 
they can -
> or could - work.
> Ours, however, is applicable to you and to me." Failure to do this 
reveals
> ignorance.
> Remark: But they are short of time.
> Comment: So is everybody.
> 
> Q: Are some ladders too short?
> 
> A: Ladders are in all conditions: new, old, rotten, short, long, 
blue,
> green, weak, strong,
> available, in use elsewhere, and all the rest of the possibilities.
> 
> Q: What should one do about all this?
> 
> A: Try to conceive that the house is on fire. If you can do so
> without becoming obsessed or irrational about it, particularly
> without becoming suggestible through dwelling on this idea, you
> may get out. But while you are full of hope and fear, of sentiment
> or desire for social activity or personal prominence or even 
regocnition,
> you will not be able to use the ladder, you may not be able to 
recognise
> one, certainly you should be spending your energies in Circles 
which abound for
> the purpose of welcoming such tendencies.
> People learn by methods which correspond with the kind and extent 
of their
> aspiration: this is a constant established Theosophical teaching.
> 
> Equally, of course, there are many people who cannot learn
> something at a given time, because they have some other expectation,
> some preoccupation, probably an emotional one.
> 
> Reflect on this news item:
> "More than 3.000 worshippers fled in near-panic from the
> famous Church of the Blessed Mary of the Rosary at Pompeii on
> Saturday night, when a bottle of Coca Cola exploded."
> (Daily Telegraph, London - Monday, 9 may 1977, p.6, col. 8)
> 
> -------
> 
> I do Hope this was as helpful to you as it was to me.
> 
> 
> So it seems, that the Climate is changing!
> The situation is almost the same as if ones own house is on fire.
> :-)
> 
> 
> from
> M. Sufilight
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: nhcareyta 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:08 PM
>   Subject: Re: Fw: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
> 
> 
>   Dear Morten
> 
>   Thank you for tying all these issues together 
>   in a Theosophical framework.
> 
>   The urgency of the moment requires an urgency 
>   to remind ourselves of who and what we really are.
> 
>   As you mention, mere thoughts are insufficient. 
> 
>   A change of consciousness is required.
> 
>   And this can be achieved by recognising our 
>   innate and intrinsic worth as individual aspects 
>   of Absolute Consciousness.
> 
>   Regards
>   Nigel
> 
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
>   theosophy@> wrote:
>   >
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I wil say: 
>   > 
>   > No one of you are average. We aught really not to think like 
this.
>   > The Divine is within all of you right here and now!
>   > The Divine is beyond thoughts.
>   > 
>   > The doctrines of unity cannot be grasped by mere intellect, 
another 
>   level of thinking or being have to be reached, or developed.
>   > 
>   > It is not so important what I think or "consider" of my self. I 
am 
>   just a friend, as far as I am able to be one.
>   > The Masters are also our friends. To "consider" something is 
maybe 
>   sometimes only of small value to talk about.
>   > 
>   > - - - - - - -
>   > 
>   > I will say.
>   > Face the Devil. Follow the Divine. Fight to the end. And Finish 
the 
>   Game.
>   > The Devil can be known or "known" for what it is. That is my 
view 
>   and knowledge.
>   > 
>   > - - - - - - -
>   > 
>   > I just have to say something about Climate Change. I do not 
hope I 
>   scare you too much with the following.
>   > I am not aware of how much you are following in on the latest 
>   science reports on what is going on. Several experts are now 
saying 
>   that the United Nations are way too cautious in the examinations 
of 
>   the dangers of Climate Change. And this is not new. But it is 
new, 
>   when the reports arrive from several independent studies, and 
when 
>   there are several of them. Some of the latest I read was from a 
>   danish named Rasmus Tonboe, who is at the Danish Meterological 
>   Institute or something saying that his satellite examinations was 
>   telling him, that just about 25% of the old core ice on the North 
>   Pole had - during just one single year - been turned into loose 
one 
>   year old ice. It is gone he says, melted if you like!
>   > If this is true, the ordinary official predictions might be way 
too 
>   omptimistic. And at least a one meter sea level rise might occur 
>   within the year 2040. A scientist named James Hansen, who is from 
>   NASA talks about not only 20-60 cm in this century, but perhaps 
>   several metres!
>   > There is more. More than 40 % of the oceans are said to suffer 
from 
>   pollution! This number was written in the magazine Science very 
>   recently. The report was made by american, canadian and british 
>   researchers from several universities in Boston. 
>   > 
>   > I am living in Denmark and Greenland is a part of our country. 
>   During the summer 2007 science discovered, that the ice was 
melting 4 
>   times more ice, than it did 10 years ago. It is the lowest level 
>   known so far in Greenland. 
>   > 
>   > If all this continues will will dead 100% within a few years 
>   discover a changed planet with 100 of millions of refugees. Lack 
of 
>   doctors, nurses, aid and food. Deseases of various kinds. 
Polluted 
>   drinking water and flooding of a great number of homes, 
libraries, 
>   historical artifacts, cities and towns. And of course a lot of 
dead 
>   persons, who will have to reincarnate at the proper places, and 
times.
>   > 
>   > I hate to talk about this. But the realities look too grim to 
just 
>   keep ignoring telling you all about it at this place. But, I 
guess 
>   humanity get what it ask for.
>   > 
>   > I know, some of you are following in on the issue. I would like 
to 
>   hear what you views are on the issue and the appearnt problem of 
real 
>   humanistic leadership right now on this planet. The British being 
>   sensible and wellinformed most of the time seem to be the country 
who 
>   take this issue more serious than any other country at the moment.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I will tell you, that I have had glimpses and messages more 
than 
>   one time about, that the Ice is melting, and it will change the 
ways 
>   we live on this planet. I was told about the issue as far back as 
>   1980. The various countries will have to help each other much 
more, 
>   just like when the Indonesian Tsunami occured. The various 
countries 
>   will be forced to forget, at least to a certain visible degree, 
their 
>   pity diferrences, and stand up together seeking to create harmony 
>   between human activities and the ecological system on this planet.
>   > 
>   > So I do not need, that we all go around saying to ourselves, 
that 
>   we are average, when we need to wake up and and face the truth 
about 
>   who we really are, and face what we really are deep within.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I do hope, that helped you all.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight
>   > 
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: Cass Silva 
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:42 PM
>   > Subject: Re: Fw: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I am. What do you consider yourself?
>   > Cass
>   > 
>   > Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@> wrote:
>   > 
>   > Are you average beings?
>   > 
>   > I would say, that Master is not agreeing on this.
>   > But, that is just my view.
>   > ;-)
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: Cass Silva 
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 6:27 AM
>   > Subject: Re: Fw: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
>   > 
>   > Not to us average beings
>   > Cass
>   > 
>   > Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@> wrote:
>   > 
>   > So the Great White Lodge has no value?
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: MKR 
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 9:30 PM
>   > Subject: Re: Fw: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
>   > 
>   > It is a free world and each can come to theri own conclusion 
and 
>   stay with
>   > it.
>   > 
>   > I am not a scholar; just an ordinary student. No organization 
can 
>   lead
>   > anyone for self development. All they can do is do the 
mechanical 
>   stuff. The
>   > real work, I think, the individual has to do it himself/herself.
>   > 
>   > mkr
>   > 
>   > On 2/16/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > > I feel absolutely free to disagree with you. "Organisations" 
as 
>   a word
>   > > covers a lot of content in its definition. Saying that the 
>   great white lodge
>   > > cannot help and benefit humanity, and that only J. 
Krishnamurti 
>   can and will
>   > > is just about the most wrong conclusion one can get into ones 
>   head!
>   > >
>   > > Do you really think, that Master Morya, H. P. Blavatsky, 
Damodar
>   > > Mavalankar are no more?
>   > > Really. How far are you prepared to go to put the Old Lady 
and 
>   Master
>   > > Morya down the toilet?
>   > >
>   > > But, of course I must be misunderstanding you, because you 
>   sound like an
>   > > intelligent scholar.
>   > >
>   > > M. Sufilight
>   > >
>   > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > > From: MKR
>   > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>   > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 4:33 PM
>   > > Subject: Re: Fw: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
>   > >
>   > > Thanks.
>   > > I have said this many times.
>   > > One of the lessons that one learns from K's disbandment of 
>   organizations
>   > > is
>   > > the need to set ourselves free to inquire as organizations 
>   cannot take us
>   > > to
>   > > enlightenment.
>   > >
>   > > mkr
>   > >
>   > > On 2/16/08, Shel Steijl <shelley@ <shelley%40sai.co.za>> 
>   wrote:
>   > > >
>   > > > Well said, MKR.
>   > > > Shel
>   > > >
>   > > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > > > From: MKR
>   > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%
>   40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
>   > > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 3:15 PM
>   > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Distortions and diversions?
>   > > >
>   > > > Any open minded person need to keep certain facts in mind.
>   > > >
>   > > > Organizations are great when it comes to mechanical tasks 
>   such as
>   > > > publishing
>   > > > and re-publishing and arranging for meetings and gatherings 
>   etc. Once it
>   > > > goes beyond that, they cannot lead one to self-discovery 
>   (which you have
>   > > > to
>   > > > do it yourself unfettered
>   > > > by any preconceived ideas or notions). Once there is an 
>   organization,
>   > > > there is the bureaucracy and the need for group conformity. 
>   Once you
>   > > > are in the group for a long time, it is very difficult to 
>   think
>   > > > outside the box. The other complicating fact is that many
>   > > > organizations own a lot of very valuable real estate
>   > > > with the ownership comes other headaches and problems that 
>   may interfere
>   > > > with the distribution of teachings. Spirituality and 
property 
>   and money
>   > > do
>   > > > not mix well.
>   > > >
>   > > > It should be recalled that during the early days of TS, 
there 
>   was very
>   > > > little money. Even the Adyar estate was purchased by 
>   borrowing money
>   > > with
>   > > > the support of some active theosophists. The lack of money 
>   helped the
>   > > > founders to concentrate on spreading theosophy than having 
to 
>   worry
>   > > about
>   > > > managing money.
>   > > >
>   > > > Looking at some of the past litigation that organizations 
>   have got
>   > > > themselves into, you will find that property and money are 
at 
>   their root
>   > > > and
>   > > > in all these litigations, it was the attorneys who came out 
>   winners.
>   > > >
>   > > > Organizations have their place and let us not over 
emphasize 
>   their role
>   > > in
>   > > > personal development and progress and spirituality.
>   > > >
>   > > > mkr
>   > > >
>   > > > On 2/16/08, nhcareyta <nhcareyta@ <nhcareyta%
>   40yahoo.com.au><nhcareyta%40yahoo.com.au>>
>   > > > wrote:
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Dear mkr
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Thank you for your comment.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > You write, "If Pablo takes time to read all the
>   > > > > past archives of various theos lists, he may
>   > > > > come out with a different opinion."
>   > > > >
>   > > > > I really hope that he might indeed read the past
>   > > > > archives and other available literature with a
>   > > > > truly open mind. However I suspect this might
>   > > > > be difficult for him.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > As an ex-Adyar Society apologist I can attest
>   > > > > to the difficulties faced by one thoroughly
>   > > > > absorbed in the organisation and its powerful
>   > > > > mindset.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > I was exposed to some of the issues of Bishop
>   > > > > Leadbeater and Dr Besant whilst President of
>   > > > > the local Lodge but dismissed it as muckraking.
>   > > > > It was only whilst living at the Adyar Society
>   > > > > headquarters in India for a few months that I
>   > > > > was able to conduct more thorough research. The
>   > > > > enormity of their betrayal of "original"
>   > > > > Theosophy and the extraordinary and all-important
>   > > > > deleterious far-reaching effects of their mindset
>   > > > > upon unsuspecting and uninformed members became
>   > > > > increasingly apparent, to the extent I could no
>   > > > > longer support the organisation. This despite
>   > > > > recognising some value in its continuance and
>   > > > > the many selfless and hard working people among
>   > > > > its membership.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > This mindset and the pervasive manner in which
>   > > > > it works can destroy free thinking which so
>   > > > > often leads to blind and stubborn resistance
>   > > > > to truth.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Regards
>   > > > > Nigel
>   > > > >
>   > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%
>   40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
>   40yahoogroups.com>, MKR
>   > > > > <mkr777@> wrote:
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > If Pablo takes time to read all the past archives of 
>   various theos
>   > > > > lists, he
>   > > > > > may come out with a different opinion. Archives have a 
>   lot of
>   > > > > material you
>   > > > > > will not find anywhere else. This is due to the fact 
that 
>   the lists
>   > > > > are
>   > > > > > outside the control of any organization and is totally 
>   unmoderated.
>   > > > > This is
>   > > > > > something that many organizations used to control flow 
of 
>   info to
>   > > > > its
>   > > > > > adherents and is finding it very hard to come to grip
>   > > > > > with. Anyone will also notice that rarely one finds 
well 
>   known
>   > > > > leaders
>   > > > > > in the hierarchy of organizations participate in any of 
>   them, even
>   > > > > > though they may lurk to see what is going on.
>   > > > > > A paradox in the internet age.
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > mkr
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > On 2/15/08, nhcareyta <nhcareyta@> wrote:
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > Dear Pablo
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > Recently you wrote, "In this circle it is fashionable
>   > > > > > > to criticize Besant and Leadbeater for whatever
>   > > > > > > they did, and most of the times the statements
>   > > > > > > are unsupported."
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > On two occasions I have asked, "Would you kindly
>   > > > > > > define your term "unsupported. And apart from
>   > > > > > > the current claim by Cass, would you also be
>   > > > > > > so kind as to show where "unsupported statements"
>   > > > > > > have been made."
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > Unless you are in process, it appears you are
>   > > > > > > disinclined to reply to my questions.
>   > > > > > > Given that you have subsequently responded to
>   > > > > > > other contributors to this discussion, I will
>   > > > > > > assume certain things.
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > Your word "unsupported" may mean
>   > > > > > > not substantiated, meaning groundless and
>   > > > > > > baseless.
>   > > > > > > If this is correct then you have failed to
>   > > > > > > demonstrate this with any examples.
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > It must therefore be assumed that you have
>   > > > > > > little or no evidence to support your claim.
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > In light of the above, I ask you to reconsider
>   > > > > > > your apparently derogatory words to Cass to
>   > > > > > > determine whether they might actually refer to
>   > > > > > > yourself, "It's interesting to see how our mind
>   > > > > > > plays games. "Consistency" is not its main
>   > > > > > > feature..."
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > I still look forward to examples where unsubstantiated
>   > > > > > > statements have been made about Bishop Leadbeater
>   > > > > > > and Dr Besant in this forum that we may discuss them
>   > > > > > > objectively and without bias.
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > > Regards
>   > > > > > > Nigel
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > > >
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > >
>   > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
>   > > >
>   > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>   > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.6/1282 - Release 
>   Date:
>   > > 2/15/2008
>   > > > 7:08 PM
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   > > 
>   > >
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > 
>   > ---------------------------------
>   > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 
>   Mobile. Try it now.
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > 
>   > ---------------------------------
>   > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 
>   Mobile. Try it now.
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>