Theos-Talk Archives (September 2007 Message tt00191)

Unfortunately Scribe I am not as charitable as you are when it comes to politicians political beliefs and core values, as I have the opinion, that at base it is just a moral pretence masking their real motive, which is greed and power.  Even if they don't start out that way, it seems they all end up that way.
   
  I agree that we are better to feel which path we are drawn to.  I like you, felt Blavatsky was onto something, and provided a rational alternative to what was unquestioningly forcefed to us as christians.  Although her system still relies on faith at least it can stand on its own merits as reasoned possibility, until faith is replaced with proof.   Faith without reason is like a man, pretending to be blind, in order to lead the blind. 
   
  Regards
  Cass  

Scribe <scribe@rs.org> wrote:
          Cass,

Well, I agree with you on that. I think the first step would be in what I and probably you did--we achieved the discernment to realize the deception, in other words we arrived at the point of knowledge where we realized we were being "fed lies from both sides" and that was our next step toward knowledge.

Turning from politics to religion, is that not similar to our pre-Theosophical experience? I'm not intimating that our previous religious mentors were lying to us but that, at least in my case, I wasn't getting answers that satisfied me. Then what did I do? I went out and searched every place I could and read everything I could ... until I found HPB and Theosophy. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I the way I did it was "keep digging" and "go deeper." Politically, each side has a core belief and if you study it you should be able to figure out if it's on one side or the other. And remember that the definition of "sin" is something that inhibits one's [spiritual] evolution. Sure, one could say that one could do *anything* and it wouldn't matter--because they needed that experience to further their evolution. And you could go on and on in this vein. 

But probably the best realistic answer is that anyone can look deep into the belief-system of this or that politic (or religion) and decide for themselves if that is the path they want to tread at this time.

I think my point is that at the bottom of all political parties there is a belief system and as well as one can one should be sure it corresponds with their own. To do that one needs to try to cut through the material and get to the spiritual as best as they can.

Indeed, there's considerations of Karma and Dharma here, the Dharma I think is the most interesting to me now. Know thyself, and do as good a job as you can in your place, and then all things will fall into place.

So I guess I've gone full circle here. :) One should do what one "feels best." One should join what religion "feels best." One should join what political party "feels best." Isn't that following our intuition and our conscience? Don't we have [essentially] all the time in the world [to get it right]?

Scribe
no expert :)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cass Silva 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB advised leaving people to their karma

But Scribe, how do you make the right decision when we are fed lies from both sides of the political arena.

Please see what HPB says about Karma
Cass
The Secret Doctrine elucidates the mysteries and essential teachings of various religions in order to show their unity. Blavatsky also intended to reveal the occult side of Nature that modern science was not approaching. For HPB evolution is spiritual and mental as well as physical. She wrote of the one Universal Life, and she perceived that matter and force are two sides of the same substance. She explained karma as action and the universal law of cause and effect or ethical causation that governs the world of being. This law of retribution is unerring; but it does not predestine because humans plan and create the causes. Destiny is self-made. The doctrine of karma explains the origin of evil, but all actions are resolved into universal harmony by the law of justice. Science by being too materialistic has left out the inner, spiritual, psychic, and moral aspects of human nature. The aggregate of individual karma becomes national karma, and the world is the total of
national karma. Because of the principle of Harmony we reward and punish ourselves for our own actions. HPB wrote,
With right knowledge,
or at any rate with a confident conviction
that our neighbors will no more work to hurt us
than we would think of harming them,
two-thirds of the World's evil would vanish into thin air.
Were no man to hurt his brother,
Karma-Nemesis would have neither cause to work for,
nor weapons to act through.5
When one breaks the laws of harmony and life, one falls into the chaos that is produced. Avenging angels only represent the reaction. The doctrines of karma and reincarnation explain the apparent injustices in life. When humans learn to act from their inner spiritual intuitions with real altruism instead of by the impulses of the selfish body, then brotherhood will become actual. Humans are their own destroyers but their own saviors as well. HPB warned that Europe was on the eve of a cataclysm because of its racial karma. In other writings she warned of future wars and an instantly devastating new weapon.
Mohandas Gandhi discovered Theosophy and met HPB in 1889 while he was studying law in London. He first read the Bhagavad-Gita in Edwin Arnold's English translation, and he joined the Blavatsky lodge in March 1891. In her last years HPB began a secret Esoteric Section for more than a thousand people. From The Book of Golden Precepts she wrote The Voice of the Silence and "The Seven Portals" with its seven keys of love (charity), harmony in word and action, patience, detachment, courage to find truth, meditation, and wisdom. She published The Key to Theosophy to answer basic questions. The motto of the Theosophical Society is "There is no religion higher than truth." The Wisdom-Religion has been known since ancient times and is passed on by initiates, profound seekers of truth, in all cultures. HPB divided human nature into seven levels: 1) physical body (rupa), 2) vital principle (prana), 3) astral body (linga sharira), 4) animal desires (kama rupa), 5) mind (manas), 6)
soul (buddhi), and 7) Spirit (atman). However, in Indian traditions buddhi usually means intuition; atma is soul, and Brahman is God or Spirit. Blavatsky rejected the dangerous doctrine of atonement, that the sacrifice of Jesus can wipe out the enormous crimes against human and divine laws. 

Yet she described God's mercy as boundless. 

She opposed retaliating against evil and advised leaving people to their karma.

Because others do evil is no reason for doing evil oneself.

Scribe <scribe@rs.org> wrote:
Excuse me, I'm sorry if I offended anyone here. I was not aware 'ideologue' 
was politically incorrect. I am not a 'righty', I am an independent so I can 
critizice both sides; neither did I vote for Bush nor do I approve of his 
policies. But I do not make ad hominems at his expense because we don't have 
to: we can vote them out of office in four years. The U.S. cannot always be 
right, nor can it always please everyone. But it *is* self-correcting and 
that is one of its big virtues, imho.

But thinking about politics and religion, you're thinking philosophy and 
ultimately theosophy. Both HPB and AAB came down strongly against communism 
and socialism and fascism and nazism. As I understand it, Alice Bailey 
dropped her socialist ties after she joined HPB.

We all have studied several other religions whether through HPB's comments 
via Theosophy or on their own. We almost cringe when someone we meet tells 
us what they know about religion, it is generally so bad, and we feel sorry 
for them, and want to enlighten them (if we feel it's worthwhile).

Same way with politics, only how many here know as much about politics as 
they do about religion? Maybe not so many. It has been said that a man's 
life is his religion. So is it his politics, I submit, and generally is in 
need of as much guidance.

No, I don't think theosophy is divorced from politics, I think it is at the 
crux of it. Evolution, expansion, freedom, choice. Involution, contraction, 
constriction, servitude. Guess which 'ism' is which. Is that not the choice 
of choices? Is that not the choice that everybody's called to make? And the 
choice we are discussing in this forum if we are discussing Theosophy?

We have discussions about religion and theosophy down pat in this forum. 
They can get pretty intellectual and ethereal and hypothetical and most of 
the time we're talking about and referring to ages past so far distant and 
personages no one has met... That seems pretty easy at that distance when 
you compare talking to someone about today's politics. But the theosophical, 
philosophical link is there to politics and that's what people need to know 
so they can make the right decision at the ballot box, don't you think?

Scribe

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kolad beth" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World Karma & Reincarnatio

__________________________I think it best to refrain from mentioning 
partisan politics as did 'scribe'. we all have our own opinion and things 
can easily be misinterpreted in these election times. this is no place for 
'right/left' 'republican/democrat' favoritism. remember G. Bush had to have 
a little black box on his shoulder for the presidential debates!______> To: 
theos-talk@yahoogroups.com> From: dzyan@online.de> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 
20:24:17 +0200> Subject: Re: Theos-World Karma & Reincarnatio>> A 
theosophist would share his opinion, that each people and nation has the> 
human right to develop its own svabhava and that each people and nation has> 
the human right to defend itsself against foreign rule.> He/she/it would 
further ask him what he has to say about information like> this:> 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G4Qpui6lwM&mode=related&search=> 
Frank> ----- Original Message -----> From: Scribe> To: 
theos-talk@yahoogroups.com> Cc: scribe> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 
5:32 PM> Subject: Re: Theos-World Karma & Reincarnatio> All,> Today Iranian 
"president" Mahmoud Ahmadinejad comes to New York to speak at> Columbia 
University and the United Nations.> He has already been asked a list of 
insipid questions by an eyebrow-arched> "60 Minutes" reporter so he [thinks 
he] knows the level of intellect of the> U.S. He is most probably correct. 
He will appear at Columbia U. and do the> same.> He will be difficult to 
"debate" because he's an ideologue--like Chris> Wallace or Bill or Hillary 
Clinton--and won't answer any questions but will> instead dodge and spout 
talking points.> The difficulty here is that this *is* the time to talk, and 
talk to him. He> styles himself as a religious philosopher as all high-up 
Muslims do, and he> also thinks he is superior to everybody else, every 
other culture, because> of his religion.> *That* is just the subject upon 
which he needs to be informed. There is no> one else but a Theosophist able 
and capable to engage him--that is, his> views. [Can you see him sitting 
across the table from HPB...?! :)]> What questions would you would ask him 
if this were a serious sit-down and> not just a propaganda photo-op?> Best,> 
Scribe> ----- Original Message -----> From: adelasie> To: 
theos-talk@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 4:55 PM> 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Karma & Reincarnatio> Ramadoss,> Agreed 
wholeheartedly. Each one of us knows someone who needs help.> If we help 
that person then there is one less person in need in our> world. We have no 
idea how that one simple act can resonate in the> mental and emotional 
stream of humanity in general. And, if we cannot> find anyone to help, maybe 
we need to help ourselves, find a way to> ceate peace in our own hearts, so 
that it can radiate to others and> eventually triumph over all.> Adelasie> 
On 22 Sep 2007 at 14:56, M K Ramadoss wrote:>> Organizations cannot get 
involved on serious issues that face the world>> everyday since much of it 
purely politics based. But individuals like you>> and me can. That is where 
Internet maillist like this come into play.>>>> The problem I see, when we 
look at the historical actions taken by>> theosophists in the past, leads 
many into confusion. Issues such as White>> Forces and Black Forces, good 
wars and bad wars, national karma etc seem>> to>> cover up the fundamental 
issue -- war -- which is the root cause of pain>> and>> suffering.>>>> In 
terms of priorities, I find many getting involved in attending to the>> pain 
and suffering -- which are the result of war. What is the priority>> that>> 
theosophists have to deal>> with. Are we going to be active in the back 
end -- helping those who>> are the willing or unwilling victims of war or do 
something in the>> front end, which is to just avoid war -- not encourage 
and support the>> war machine. We see heroic efforts made in treating 
wounded in>> battlefield and as well as those injured physically and 
mentally as a>> result of the war. These are the issues that we need to 
think over and>> decide for ourselves what we can do in our own little 
way.>>>> It is simple>> hippocracy, IMHO, to talk about "higher" things, 
meditate and look for>> spiritual growth while at the same time being 
totally disinterested in>> the suffering that is going on around the world 
and doing nothing>> about the root causes, even though on an individual 
level the actions>> may show only marginal immediate results.>>>>>> 
mkr>>>>>> On 9/20/07, Cass Silva> wrote:>>>>>> A good starting point with 
Karma is to ask what lesson is being learnt>>> by>>> this suffering. 
Democracy is the new colonialism. Will all this pain and>>> suffering cause 
an Iraki or an American soldier to reevaluate his>>> ideals.>>> Will it 
challenge their faith in their religion? What do we, the>>> armchair>>> 
philosophers learn from sitting back and watching the daily attrocities,>>> 
the>>> inhumanity to man. I admire those protestors who get out of their 
warm>>> beds>>> to voice their opposition to these actions. Is it enough to 
say I am>>> being a>>> good theosophist, I preach the gospel of sophia, from 
my ivory castle?>>> Where>>> are the dissenting voices of our belief 
system?>>>>>> As a society of free thinkers why hasn't Adyar or Pasadena 
shown its>>> disgust for current world events. We can offer sympathy even 
empathy,>>> but in>>> reality our lack of action and commitment to our 
fellow brothers and>>> sisters, lies on the comfortable couch of, it's not 
my karma. It seems>>> to me>>> that we are no better than the Roman Church 
which selectively becomes>>> mute>>> when its followers are massacring 
others or are being massacred.>>>>>> Cass>>>>>> Cass>>>>>> Scribe> wrote:>>> 
MK,>>>>>> Thank you for your questions, they look familiar. I have been 
asked>>> essentially the same questions and I have tried to respond with 
the>>> answers>>> below which you may judge:>>>>>> Best Regards,>>> 
Scribe>>>>>> MKR: "The bottom line is - war is causing a lot of pain and 
suffering to>>> a>>>>>> very>>> large number of people.>>>>>> "How does one 
view the above from a Karmic point of view:>>>>>> "Is all the suffering due 
to repayment of Karmic Debts by those who are>>> facing pain & 
suffering?">>>>>> ME: Except for accidents, yes.>>>>>> MKR: "What are the 
Karmic consequences for those responsible for the>>> destruction>>> and 
pain? Or are they just acting as the agents of Lords of Karma so>>> that>>> 
they do not have to face any consequences?">>>>>> ME: Karma is mitigated 
when one is involved because their country is at>>> war.>>> They should not 
incur more than they should unless they go off on their>>> own>>> and do bad 
things to others.>>>>>> MKR: "Since countries are involved, what are the 
national karmic>>> consequences? Do>>> we - you and I going to pay for the 
national karma?">>>>>> ME: This is partially answered above. There is 
national karma and we are>>> part of that, Again, unless we do something bad 
from a personal point we>>> will be in the general national karma 
situation.>>>>>> MKR: "For some of us who believe in Karma, what are our 
responsibilities>>> and>>> what>>> we can do to minimize the pain and 
suffering?">>>>>> ME: To me, at this point in my understanding of 
Theosophical teachings>>> and>>>>>> high philosophy, that is the 
quintessential question for all of us. My>>> first>>> duty is to my family, 
and that means not to do anything rash that will>>> come>>> back and harm 
them physically or financially if I were to be arrested in>>> a>>>>>> 
protest, etc. I feel I can do the most good by being a good example in>>> 
person in my actions at home and outside my home by my cordial treatment>>> 
of>>> others including Muslims. My livelihood is modest but beneficial to>>> 
mankind,>>> I do no harm. I am blessed with a good mind and I try to 
interject>>> healing>>>>>> thoughts and Theosophical comments in my everyday 
discourse and in>>> particular in my forums and emails on the internet. 
Since the internet>>> came>>> out I have dedicated a web site to 
Theosophical teachings and other good>>> works. My Mars is conjunct Uranus 
in Gemini and my Mercury is on my>>> Medium>>>>>> Coeli--so I must write, 
it's in my genes. :)>>>>>> MKR: "Etc. Etc.>>>>>> Any thoughts?>>>>>> 
Mkr">>>>>> ----- Original Message ----->>> From: "M K Ramadoss">>>> To:>; 
<>>> theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:48 
PM>>> Subject: Theos-World Karma & Reincarnation>>>>>> We are exposed to the 
principles of Karma and Reincarnation and from>>> time>>> to>>> time we 
think about it when we act or react in any situation we are>>> faced>>> 
with.>>>>>> The world is watching the war that is going on in the 
Afghanistan and>>> Iraq.>>> Thanks for the modern technology; we are able to 
see live pictures of>>> what>>> goes on in a war. In the past, we were able 
to read eyewitness accounts>>> of>>> the action and some still pictures. For 
any sensitive person who sees>>> the>>> live pictures on TV will be very 
much pained to see what is happening>>> unless>>> one is insensitive to all 
the horror.>>>>>> From a factual/statistical point of view:>>>>>> 1. 
Numerous buildings - residences and commercial are destroyed by>>> bombs and 
firefight.>>> 2. Many young men and women have lost their lives causing a 
lot of>>> suffering to their kith and kin and the results are going to last 
a very>>> long time.>>> 3. Many young men and women have been seriously 
wounded - losing their>>> limbs and disabling head injuries. Lifelong 
suffering will be faced by>>> them.>>> Again causing suffering to kith and 
kin.>>> 4. Several million have been displaced and are refugees from their 
own>>> countries. Most with no jobs and homeless living on government 
handouts.>>> 5. Several thousands have been killed, maimed.>>> 6. Countries 
infrastructure destroyed.>>>>>> The bottom line is - war is causing a lot of 
pain and suffering to a>>> very>>> large number of people.>>>>>> How does 
one view the above from a Karmic point of view.>>>>>> Is all the suffering 
due to repayment of Karmic Debts by those who are>>> facing pain & 
suffering?>>>>>> What are the Karmic consequences for those responsible for 
the>>> destruction>>> and pain? Or are they just acting as the agents of 
Lords of Karma so>>> that>>> they do not have to face any 
consequences?>>>>>> Since countries are involved, what are the national 
karmic consequences?>>> Do>>> we - you and I going to pay for the national 
karma?>>>>>> For some of us who believe in Karma, what are our 
responsibilities and>>> what>>> we can do to minimize the pain and 
suffering?>>>>>> Etc. Etc.>>>>>> Any thoughts?>>>>>> Mkr>>>>>> [Non-text 
portions of this message have been removed]>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups 
Links>>>>>> --------------------------------->>> Be a better Heartthrob. Get 
better relationship answers from someone who>>> knows.>>> Yahoo! Answers - 
Check it out.>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been 
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removed]>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>

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