Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00284)

Anand,
  I don't agree. I believe Krishnamurti's methods complimentary to what HPB said.  HPB says in her intro to the S.D.
  "But it is perhaps desirable to state unequivocally that the teachings, however fragmentary and incomplete, contained in these volumes (S.D.) belong neither to the Hindu, the Zoroastrian, the Chaldean, nor the Egyptian religion, neither to Buddhism Islam, Judaism nor Christianity exclusively.  The Secret Doctrine is the essence of all these.
   
  So Krishnamurt and HPB agree that it is a waste of time to study comparative religions unless one is studying the essence of that religion and not the dogma.
   
  The masters would not have categorically stated that Religion is at the root of all evil in the world,would he, seems they too agree with Krishnamurti.
   
  Cass

supreme_1l <AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org> wrote:
          Here is another big difference between Theosophy and Krishnamurti's
speeches (whether to call it teaching is another question).
Theosophical Society had second object as promotion of the study of
comparative religion, which means study of books on religions,
scriptures etc. Krishnamurti's position was exactly opposite.
According to Krishnamurti study of books was harmful, people should
forget religions.
Anand Gholap

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Sender" <pasender@...> wrote:
>
> If you say we cannot do a comparative study, then you are giving up 
> one of the TS objects (at least as stated in the Adyar TS). I think 
> we can do a comparative study, although of course only in a 
> conceptual way, being no Initiates. But to waste time and effort in 
> arguments about people's life, feeding all kind of bad feelings, is 
> not worthwhile.
> For example, there is the idea of Leadbeater's sexual abuse of kids. 
> He went to a legal trial, and he was found innocent. 
> The first accusation in USA was stupid. They found a slip of paper on 
> the FLOOR of the house, TYPEWRITTEN, WITHOUT SIGNATURE, (and if you 
> see Leadbeater letters, cards, etc., they have ALWAYS his signature), 
> written in a cipher that was published several years ago in the 
> Theosophist, and a boy who didn't understand the meaning of that 
> paper, and because of that he shared it with his parents. It is 
> obvious that the case was framed against him by parents whose 
> children were rejected by Leadbeater (he was training some children 
> with potentialities).
> He do advise some children obsessed by sexual thoughts not to go to a 
> prostitute, no to indulge in constant thinking about sexual matters, 
> but to relief the sexual pressure through controlled masturbation, 
> tending to reduce the frequency gradually. At that time, they thought 
> masturbation was a homosexual practice that would be drive you mad, 
> etc. Today, every sexologist will tell that it is not only harmless, 
> but it is necessary to a healthy development of teenager's 
> psychology. And I agree with Leadbeater's advise.
> As to the second case, when I was in India, I saw orthodox Hindus 
> having a bath with cloth covering their sexual organs. That is very 
> unhealthy. Leadbeater was teaching Krishnamuty and Nitya to clean all 
> their bodies, to have a bath naked (as we all do) then an orthodox 
> servant entered and, seeing the children naked (what was unacceptable 
> to his religion) and then sparkle the second case.
> There are a lot of written statements by Leadbeater's pupils saying 
> they've never seen anything bad in Leadbeater behavior. But for many 
> of his accusers, that evidence doen't count.
> Of course, we can argue endlessly without being convinced, and that's 
> the problem. But if you are open-minded, without any emotional bias 
> about this, you will find it is possible for Leadbeater to be 
> innocent.
> The date of birth, an allegued "lie". If you know a little about 
> Astrology, do the astral chart of Leadbeater in both dates, and see 
> with chart gives the characteristic of a psychic. The Leadbeater's 
> version of his date of birth!
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Pablo,
> > I was thinking more along the lines of Ms Burnier's thinking that 
> negative thought forms outweigh a comparative study. As one would 
> need to be clairvoyant to really compare, say, what Leadbeater says 
> about the Astral and what HPB said, so from that point we would be 
> unable to see which teaching was accurate. All we can do, is to be 
> platonic in nature and deduce from logic what is more probable. Am I 
> right in thinking that Plato's arguments were verified through 
> testing an idea to its logical conclusion?
> > 
> > Cheers
> > Cass
> > 
> > Pablo Sender <pasender@> wrote:
> > Yes Cass, but one thing is to do a comparative study, 
> what Radha is 
> > not at all against to, and other different thing is to enter in the 
> > controversy of attacking and defending, with what it generates and 
> > the waste of time involved.
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Nigel,
> > > As always I very fair and balanced point of view. I found it 
> > interesting that Radha Burnier felt that thoughts generated by an 
> > analysis of Leadbeater's work would incite thoughts of hatred and 
> > division within the movement. It appears that the movement 
> outweighs 
> > the teachings for Ms Burnier. If one applied this method to other 
> > non-theosophical authors,eg Darwin - their findings would never 
> have 
> > been challenged. And I am sure that debate on Darwin does not leave 
> > us with feelings or thoughts of hatred towards him or his theories. 
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > nhcareyta <nhcareyta@> wrote:
> > > Dear Pablo
> > > Thank you for sharing in such a comprehensive and heartfelt 
> manner 
> > > your personal experience of the Adyar Society. Like you, I was 
> > deeply 
> > > involved and committed to the organisation on all levels and 
> worked 
> > > alongside some very hard working, selfless and sincere people. I 
> > also 
> > > experienced the opposite, such being human nature wherever we may 
> > be. 
> > > I particularly appreciated Dr Burnier (Radha) as a friend and 
> > > colleague and respected her for her work as International 
> > President, 
> > > a role with considerable difficulties not always understood by 
> the 
> > > membership or public at large. 
> > > 
> > > Thank you for considering my previous posting to be "mostly 
> right" 
> > > although I am less certain as to its "rightness", it being simply 
> > an 
> > > accurate portrayal of my current perspective.
> > > 
> > > You write, "I think there is a wrong idea about the Adyar TS, 
> when 
> > > people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being more learned than 
> HPB, 
> > > or things like that. I've never heard anything of that sort?" 
> > > 
> > > I can only respond by saying "I certainly have" and quite 
> > vehemently 
> > > and on numerous occasions both in Australia and India. On one 
> > > occasion in particular, many years ago whilst national lecturer, 
> I 
> > > was asked what my thoughts were of Bishop Leadbeater by a senior 
> > > member of the ES at the Manor. I replied in the somewhat 
> diplomatic 
> > > manner required of my position that he was a tireless and 
> committed 
> > > worker who made an extensive contribution, although I wasn't 
> > entirely 
> > > convinced by some of his teachings. The very aggressive reply 
> came 
> > > back, "Well I think he's the greatest occultist that ever lived." 
> > End 
> > > of discussion!
> > > In Adyar in 1996 the level of devotion to Bishop Leadbeater, Dr 
> > > Besant and Krishnamurti was palpable, far more so than towards 
> > Madame 
> > > Blavatsky. 
> > > 
> > > You write, "?and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> > reverence 
> > > for HPB."
> > > 
> > > With respect, that is a rather broad generalisation of the total 
> TS 
> > > membership. I have heard many condemnatory remarks made about 
> > Madame 
> > > Blavatsky by members from all parts of the world in terms of her 
> > > temperament and teachings. There have been articles published in 
> > > Adyar Society magazines strongly challenging Madame Blavatsky's 
> > > pronouncements. I have seen none challenging those of Bishop 
> > > Leadbeater or Dr Besant.
> > > 
> > > You write, "Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception 
> about 
> > > Leadbeater.
> > > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad idea 
> > > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
> admiration 
> > > for him as a person?"
> > > 
> > > Bishop Leadbeater was certainly not all bad although I can only 
> > hope 
> > > you continue to investigate his life history, his activities and 
> > his 
> > > pronouncements. If you haven't done so already, researching 
> through 
> > > the past few years of theostalk alone will provide helpful 
> > > information perhaps. If you have so done, then we will have to 
> > > respectfully disagree on this matter.
> > > 
> > > You write, "So I asked (Radha) shouldn't we write books showing 
> the 
> > > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)"
> > > 
> > > Having heard this response from her before, although in a 
> somewhat 
> > > different manner, I respectfully disagree. Notwithstanding the 
> > often 
> > > all too important political considerations, it is my current 
> > > perspective that the documented and demonstrable behaviour, 
> > untruths 
> > > and "mental atmosphere" of Bishop Leadbeater precludes him from a 
> > > position of honour and promotion in a theosophical organisation. 
> It 
> > > is my belief that if members were made aware of his complete 
> > history, 
> > > many would adopt a similar position.
> > > 
> > > You write, "Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to 
> > skip 
> > > controversies over personalities;"
> > > 
> > > My, and I know many others' concerns do not relate to 
> > personalities, 
> > > although this is where the debate is often steered by those who 
> do 
> > > not wish to confront the real issues. I am not ascribing this 
> > > tendency to you as you appear to me to be very sincere. 
> > Personalities 
> > > are largely unimportant. A person's character however is a 
> > different 
> > > matter. Honesty, integrity and simply telling the truth are 
> > qualities 
> > > of far greater significance from both an occult and mundane 
> > > perspective.
> > > 
> > > You write, "What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon 
> the 
> > > Adyar TS, because it damages the whole movement, and is far below 
> > > every theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> > > Mahatma KH says about the elementals putting in activity by a 
> > person 
> > > who goes to denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy 
> in 
> > > something
> > > constructive)."
> > > 
> > > This is an admirable sentiment however from my perspective, it is 
> > > some in the Adyar TS hierarchy who have damaged and continue to 
> > > damage the entire movement by continuing to support and promote 
> > > thoroughly discredited and dishonourable teachers and teachings. 
> I 
> > > hasten to emphasise "some" because as mentioned, there are many 
> > good 
> > > people in the Adyar TS and there are even those who have chosen 
> to 
> > > remain members in the hope they might slowly effect change.
> > > In response to your paraphrasing of the Mahatma's ideal, I would 
> > > add, "Evil happens when good (people) do nothing."
> > > 
> > > When heavily involved in the Adyar TS in earlier years I was 
> mostly 
> > > blind to these issues. Through extensive research into the 
> > differing 
> > > historical accounts of the movement along with "outsiders'" 
> > > perspectives, I gradually became aware that there were other 
> > > legitimate stories, other than those perpetuated in the 
> cloistered 
> > > environment and energies of the Adyar Society. My eyes were 
> > gradually 
> > > opened to that which ultimately became unacceptable for me. My 
> > > initial ignorance was replaced by denial followed by attempted 
> > > justification and eventual acceptance of "reality", with much 
> pain 
> > > along the way. 
> > > It has been an interesting journey thus far.
> > > 
> > > My very best wishes to you in yours
> > > 
> > > Kind regards
> > > Nigel
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Sender" <pasender@> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Nigel
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, you are mostly right. But I think the problem we are 
> dealing 
> > > > with is human nature itself, and that makes the situation quite 
> > > > complex. . . Let me explain myself. 
> > > > I'm 32 and I've been in the TS (Adyar) since I was 20. From the 
> > > very 
> > > > beginning I was deeply interested in Theosophy and also 
> involved 
> > in 
> > > > the institutional work. I was member of the TS National Council 
> > in 
> > > > Argentina, I gave lectures and courses (in my country and 
> several 
> > > > others, including Spain), conducted a Summer School, and so on. 
> > > Then, 
> > > > I went to Adyar and I was working in the Archives for one and a 
> > > half 
> > > > year. I've gave several lectures there and, along with my wife, 
> a 
> > > > three-month course on the Secret Doctrine. I'm telling this 
> only 
> > to 
> > > > convey I've been involved both in the teachings and in the 
> > > > institutional work.
> > > > 
> > > > First let's clear the field. I think there is a wrong idea 
> about 
> > > the 
> > > > Adyar TS, when people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being 
> more 
> > > > learned than HPB, or things like that. I've never heard 
> anything 
> > of 
> > > > that sort, and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> > reverence 
> > > > for HPB. During all these years and experiences, I was never 
> > forced 
> > > > to study or accept anything from anyone. Being more in tune 
> with 
> > > > HPB's teachings, I did not read much of Leadbeater's. In my 
> > > lectures, 
> > > > courses, etc., I never made use of his teachings, and nobody 
> said 
> > > > anything, nor even noticed it. So, Leadbeater is just one of 
> the 
> > > many 
> > > > author we study. Even when in Adyar, I heard lectures about HPB 
> > and 
> > > > no one about Leadbeater (well, one, in fact, that was mine). It 
> > is 
> > > > not that the Adyar TS don't like Leadbeater, but his teachings 
> > are 
> > > > not its main subject.
> > > > 
> > > > Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception about 
> > Leadbeater. 
> > > > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > > > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad 
> idea 
> > > > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
> > admiration 
> > > > for him as a person, although I'm not generally in tune with 
> his 
> > > > style of teaching. This change of mind was only due to my 
> > research. 
> > > > Nobody ever told me anything about him in my year and a half 
> > there. 
> > > > And I've read letters written by other people (for example 
> GdeP) 
> > > that 
> > > > left a very poor image of him. (Once I talked to Radha Burnier 
> > > about 
> > > > the bad idea I had on Besant and Leadbeater, etc., that was 
> > mainly 
> > > > due to a lack of information or, in fact, because the only 
> > > > information I had come across came from those who don't like 
> them 
> > > and 
> > > > write against them. So I asked shouldn't we write books showing 
> > the 
> > > > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > > > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > > > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > > > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)
> > > > 
> > > > Then, my point is: many people outside the TS say "how can you 
> > > > believe in HPB with her speaking of those "invented" Mahatmas, 
> > she 
> > > > being a fraud, as demonstrated by..." etc., etc. Yet, for us, 
> HPB 
> > > was 
> > > > right. The same happens with Leadbeater, for example, or many 
> > other 
> > > > leaders all over the world. There are accusations that are very 
> > > > obvious to certain people, but wrong to other. You cannot help 
> > it. 
> > > It 
> > > > has been always like that, and today Simon Magus was a black 
> > > magician 
> > > > and Peter the mouthpiece of God to most of the people (just to 
> > > > mention one case).
> > > > So, if you think Besant was deluded, everything will sound 
> > > > outrageous. But if you think she was right, then many things 
> make 
> > > > sense. Here is an interesting exercise: read what happened to 
> HPB 
> > > and 
> > > > around her, but instead of being HPB, think it was Besant. Many 
> > > > things you now accept will sound very doubtful. I did that 
> > exercise 
> > > > with HPB Judge, Besant, etc. It'll reveal a lot.
> > > > Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to skip 
> > > > controversies over personalities; there will always be two 
> sides. 
> > > > Therefore, what is the most intelligent attitude? To me, it is 
> > that 
> > > > of tolerance. I know this attitude is challenging, it also has 
> > > > several weaknesses, and it requires a lot of discrimination by 
> > the 
> > > > members. You will meet some people reading things I don't 
> > consider 
> > > > theosophy at all. That's right. The attitude of saying "this 
> set 
> > of 
> > > > authors are theosophical" is easier, provides more 
> psychological 
> > > > security, etc. But I sincerely prefer the side-effects of 
> > tolerance 
> > > > to those of marking limits. And I've seen in some Lodges in my 
> > > > country. Where they are "orthodox", you have few people knowing 
> > > about 
> > > > HPB with certain understanding, and the rest of the members 
> only 
> > > > repeating as parrots. While in Lodges where there was an 
> exposal 
> > to 
> > > > different lines of thought (and the members were serious) there 
> > was 
> > > a 
> > > > much deeper understanding even of HPB's writings. I think the 
> > > second 
> > > > object of the TS has a deep significance, far beyond a mere 
> > > academic 
> > > > one. In fact, that was my case. The more I opened my horizon, 
> the 
> > > > more deeply could I understand HPB's teachings (remember HPB 
> said 
> > > an 
> > > > occultist should know, although not necessarily dominate, all 
> the 
> > > > philosophies).
> > > > 
> > > > I personally am very happy with the Adyar TS policy and I 
> > sincerely 
> > > > think is what the Founders wanted for the TS, although I 
> > understand 
> > > > some people may consider it differently of may need another 
> > > approach. 
> > > > What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon the Adyar 
> TS, 
> > > > because it damages the whole movement, and is far below every 
> > > > theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> > Mahatma 
> > > KH 
> > > > says about the elementals putting in activity by a person who 
> > goes 
> > > to 
> > > > denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy in 
> something 
> > > > constructive).
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ---------------------------------
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
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>



         

       
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