Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00258)

Hello again Nigel,
  I can't get away from the fact that as you say, Radha Burnier has an obligation and responsibility towards the infrastructure and the stability of the theosophical society, because as a theosophical student I believe that Radha's obligation and responsibility should be towards the "truth".  As HPB said, "there is no religion higher than truth" which for me means that no organization is higher than its truths.
   
  Unfortunately HPB was not born at a time when she could roam the countryside with her teachings, the then current situation dictated that the only forum would be to form a society whereby the truths could be filtered.  I am sure the Masters and HPB knew this would be doomed to failure because they knew that those that followed would be challenged and tempted by their own ego, that they, were not fully in control of their ego, but were perhaps the best around at the time.   There purpose was pure and simply to provide an alternative explanation to our inherent divinity.  One cannot answer to two masters, and the TS cannot survive if it persists in honoring those that misconstrued or slanted the message towards their own belief system.
   
  Regardless of what Ms Burnier does, Theosophy will survive, HPB's message will survive, it will reach those that are "ready" whether or not a Theosophical Society exists or not.
   
  Sadly, the TS is not a good place to start if the teachings only lead to confusion and division, although I spent many happy years learning about theosophy through some wonderful theosophists who were more or less obliged to teach Leadbeater/Besant when I am sure were not in agreement with their teachings and tried to draw parallels which were not there.
   
  Thanks for listening, look forward to your comments.
   
  Cass

nhcareyta <nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
          Dear Cass 
Thank you for your kind feedback. It's good to be in dialogue with 
you again.

I think you make a very good analogy with Darwin, although behind the 
scenes there would probably be considerable disquiet amongst and 
between the various academic disciplines until, through simple weight 
of evidence alone, they arrive at the state of logic you so 
pertinently mentioned in a previous post! 

Yes, as you allude, as the democratically elected International 
President, Radha certainly has a number of responsibilities to 
consider, one of these presumably being a sense of duty to protect 
the organisation and its infrastructure. There is obvious merit in 
this position unless taken to the extreme. After all, the general 
corporate philosophy is that even a flawed organisation is better 
than none, particularly where the organisation promotes selflessness 
and compassion. However, the Theosophical Society was not only 
established to promote these worthwhile qualities and from my 
perspective the circumstances surrounding Bishop Leadbeater fulfils 
the criteria of extreme. 
Here however the situation becomes more than a little tenuous as 
there are political considerations, of which you are probably aware, 
that are not always immediately apparent to the casual observer. 
Bishop Leadbeater is often more than closely associated with Dr Annie 
Besant, no more so than in India. Indian membership of the Adyar 
Society makes up more than 30% of the worldwide membership. There are 
other countries where Bishop Leadbeater has a considerable following, 
including Australia. A rigorous, wide-ranging debate as to the merits 
or otherwise of Bishop Leadbeater will necessarily expose some very 
dirty but true facts which will certainly shock and dismay many 
members, with predictable psychological and practical consequences. 
Moreover, this will inevitably draw Dr Besant into the debate and her 
reputation may also be significantly damaged due to her close 
relationship with Bishop Leadbeater, for some of the political 
decisions she made concerning him and for some of the pronouncements 
she made, of which many members may be unaware. This might also lead 
to similar consequences.
And herein lies an additional political consideration. Dr Besant is 
still revered by many throughout the upper echelons of the broader 
Indian community for her political and educational work. In my 
opinion, this reputation and her association with the Theosophical 
Society have been of great benefit, in one form or another, in 
retaining some of the land which forms part of the International 
headquarters, despite apparent attempts by government to resume it. 
This land houses, among other things, the large Olcott and 
Krishnamurti schools, which provide a valuable service, particularly 
to very disadvantaged children.

Despite the potential risks involved, I think the Leadbeater issue 
needs to be addressed honestly, openly and courageously before the 
Adyar Society can regain its onetime reputation as an organisation of 
fearless truth-seekers, so evidently and earnestly desired by Madame 
Blavatsky and her teachers. 

Kind regards
Nigel

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Nigel,
> As always I very fair and balanced point of view. I found it 
interesting that Radha Burnier felt that thoughts generated by an 
analysis of Leadbeater's work would incite thoughts of hatred and 
division within the movement. It appears that the movement outweighs 
the teachings for Ms Burnier. If one applied this method to other 
non-theosophical authors,eg Darwin - their findings would never have 
been challenged. And I am sure that debate on Darwin does not leave 
us with feelings or thoughts of hatred towards him or his theories. 
> 
> Cheers
> Cass
> 
> nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
> Dear Pablo
> Thank you for sharing in such a comprehensive and heartfelt manner 
> your personal experience of the Adyar Society. Like you, I was 
deeply 
> involved and committed to the organisation on all levels and worked 
> alongside some very hard working, selfless and sincere people. I 
also 
> experienced the opposite, such being human nature wherever we may 
be. 
> I particularly appreciated Dr Burnier (Radha) as a friend and 
> colleague and respected her for her work as International 
President, 
> a role with considerable difficulties not always understood by the 
> membership or public at large. 
> 
> Thank you for considering my previous posting to be "mostly right" 
> although I am less certain as to its "rightness", it being simply 
an 
> accurate portrayal of my current perspective.
> 
> You write, "I think there is a wrong idea about the Adyar TS, when 
> people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being more learned than HPB, 
> or things like that. I've never heard anything of that sort?" 
> 
> I can only respond by saying "I certainly have" and quite 
vehemently 
> and on numerous occasions both in Australia and India. On one 
> occasion in particular, many years ago whilst national lecturer, I 
> was asked what my thoughts were of Bishop Leadbeater by a senior 
> member of the ES at the Manor. I replied in the somewhat diplomatic 
> manner required of my position that he was a tireless and committed 
> worker who made an extensive contribution, although I wasn't 
entirely 
> convinced by some of his teachings. The very aggressive reply came 
> back, "Well I think he's the greatest occultist that ever lived." 
End 
> of discussion!
> In Adyar in 1996 the level of devotion to Bishop Leadbeater, Dr 
> Besant and Krishnamurti was palpable, far more so than towards 
Madame 
> Blavatsky. 
> 
> You write, "?and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
reverence 
> for HPB."
> 
> With respect, that is a rather broad generalisation of the total TS 
> membership. I have heard many condemnatory remarks made about 
Madame 
> Blavatsky by members from all parts of the world in terms of her 
> temperament and teachings. There have been articles published in 
> Adyar Society magazines strongly challenging Madame Blavatsky's 
> pronouncements. I have seen none challenging those of Bishop 
> Leadbeater or Dr Besant.
> 
> You write, "Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception about 
> Leadbeater.
> But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad idea 
> about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent admiration 
> for him as a person?"
> 
> Bishop Leadbeater was certainly not all bad although I can only 
hope 
> you continue to investigate his life history, his activities and 
his 
> pronouncements. If you haven't done so already, researching through 
> the past few years of theostalk alone will provide helpful 
> information perhaps. If you have so done, then we will have to 
> respectfully disagree on this matter.
> 
> You write, "So I asked (Radha) shouldn't we write books showing the 
> other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)"
> 
> Having heard this response from her before, although in a somewhat 
> different manner, I respectfully disagree. Notwithstanding the 
often 
> all too important political considerations, it is my current 
> perspective that the documented and demonstrable behaviour, 
untruths 
> and "mental atmosphere" of Bishop Leadbeater precludes him from a 
> position of honour and promotion in a theosophical organisation. It 
> is my belief that if members were made aware of his complete 
history, 
> many would adopt a similar position.
> 
> You write, "Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to 
skip 
> controversies over personalities;"
> 
> My, and I know many others' concerns do not relate to 
personalities, 
> although this is where the debate is often steered by those who do 
> not wish to confront the real issues. I am not ascribing this 
> tendency to you as you appear to me to be very sincere. 
Personalities 
> are largely unimportant. A person's character however is a 
different 
> matter. Honesty, integrity and simply telling the truth are 
qualities 
> of far greater significance from both an occult and mundane 
> perspective.
> 
> You write, "What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon the 
> Adyar TS, because it damages the whole movement, and is far below 
> every theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> Mahatma KH says about the elementals putting in activity by a 
person 
> who goes to denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy in 
> something
> constructive)."
> 
> This is an admirable sentiment however from my perspective, it is 
> some in the Adyar TS hierarchy who have damaged and continue to 
> damage the entire movement by continuing to support and promote 
> thoroughly discredited and dishonourable teachers and teachings. I 
> hasten to emphasise "some" because as mentioned, there are many 
good 
> people in the Adyar TS and there are even those who have chosen to 
> remain members in the hope they might slowly effect change.
> In response to your paraphrasing of the Mahatma's ideal, I would 
> add, "Evil happens when good (people) do nothing."
> 
> When heavily involved in the Adyar TS in earlier years I was mostly 
> blind to these issues. Through extensive research into the 
differing 
> historical accounts of the movement along with "outsiders'" 
> perspectives, I gradually became aware that there were other 
> legitimate stories, other than those perpetuated in the cloistered 
> environment and energies of the Adyar Society. My eyes were 
gradually 
> opened to that which ultimately became unacceptable for me. My 
> initial ignorance was replaced by denial followed by attempted 
> justification and eventual acceptance of "reality", with much pain 
> along the way. 
> It has been an interesting journey thus far.
> 
> My very best wishes to you in yours
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Sender" <pasender@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Nigel
> > 
> > Yes, you are mostly right. But I think the problem we are dealing 
> > with is human nature itself, and that makes the situation quite 
> > complex. . . Let me explain myself. 
> > I'm 32 and I've been in the TS (Adyar) since I was 20. From the 
> very 
> > beginning I was deeply interested in Theosophy and also involved 
in 
> > the institutional work. I was member of the TS National Council 
in 
> > Argentina, I gave lectures and courses (in my country and several 
> > others, including Spain), conducted a Summer School, and so on. 
> Then, 
> > I went to Adyar and I was working in the Archives for one and a 
> half 
> > year. I've gave several lectures there and, along with my wife, a 
> > three-month course on the Secret Doctrine. I'm telling this only 
to 
> > convey I've been involved both in the teachings and in the 
> > institutional work.
> > 
> > First let's clear the field. I think there is a wrong idea about 
> the 
> > Adyar TS, when people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being more 
> > learned than HPB, or things like that. I've never heard anything 
of 
> > that sort, and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
reverence 
> > for HPB. During all these years and experiences, I was never 
forced 
> > to study or accept anything from anyone. Being more in tune with 
> > HPB's teachings, I did not read much of Leadbeater's. In my 
> lectures, 
> > courses, etc., I never made use of his teachings, and nobody said 
> > anything, nor even noticed it. So, Leadbeater is just one of the 
> many 
> > author we study. Even when in Adyar, I heard lectures about HPB 
and 
> > no one about Leadbeater (well, one, in fact, that was mine). It 
is 
> > not that the Adyar TS don't like Leadbeater, but his teachings 
are 
> > not its main subject.
> > 
> > Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception about 
Leadbeater. 
> > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad idea 
> > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
admiration 
> > for him as a person, although I'm not generally in tune with his 
> > style of teaching. This change of mind was only due to my 
research. 
> > Nobody ever told me anything about him in my year and a half 
there. 
> > And I've read letters written by other people (for example GdeP) 
> that 
> > left a very poor image of him. (Once I talked to Radha Burnier 
> about 
> > the bad idea I had on Besant and Leadbeater, etc., that was 
mainly 
> > due to a lack of information or, in fact, because the only 
> > information I had come across came from those who don't like them 
> and 
> > write against them. So I asked shouldn't we write books showing 
the 
> > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)
> > 
> > Then, my point is: many people outside the TS say "how can you 
> > believe in HPB with her speaking of those "invented" Mahatmas, 
she 
> > being a fraud, as demonstrated by..." etc., etc. Yet, for us, HPB 
> was 
> > right. The same happens with Leadbeater, for example, or many 
other 
> > leaders all over the world. There are accusations that are very 
> > obvious to certain people, but wrong to other. You cannot help 
it. 
> It 
> > has been always like that, and today Simon Magus was a black 
> magician 
> > and Peter the mouthpiece of God to most of the people (just to 
> > mention one case).
> > So, if you think Besant was deluded, everything will sound 
> > outrageous. But if you think she was right, then many things make 
> > sense. Here is an interesting exercise: read what happened to HPB 
> and 
> > around her, but instead of being HPB, think it was Besant. Many 
> > things you now accept will sound very doubtful. I did that 
exercise 
> > with HPB Judge, Besant, etc. It'll reveal a lot.
> > Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to skip 
> > controversies over personalities; there will always be two sides. 
> > Therefore, what is the most intelligent attitude? To me, it is 
that 
> > of tolerance. I know this attitude is challenging, it also has 
> > several weaknesses, and it requires a lot of discrimination by 
the 
> > members. You will meet some people reading things I don't 
consider 
> > theosophy at all. That's right. The attitude of saying "this set 
of 
> > authors are theosophical" is easier, provides more psychological 
> > security, etc. But I sincerely prefer the side-effects of 
tolerance 
> > to those of marking limits. And I've seen in some Lodges in my 
> > country. Where they are "orthodox", you have few people knowing 
> about 
> > HPB with certain understanding, and the rest of the members only 
> > repeating as parrots. While in Lodges where there was an exposal 
to 
> > different lines of thought (and the members were serious) there 
was 
> a 
> > much deeper understanding even of HPB's writings. I think the 
> second 
> > object of the TS has a deep significance, far beyond a mere 
> academic 
> > one. In fact, that was my case. The more I opened my horizon, the 
> > more deeply could I understand HPB's teachings (remember HPB said 
> an 
> > occultist should know, although not necessarily dominate, all the 
> > philosophies).
> > 
> > I personally am very happy with the Adyar TS policy and I 
sincerely 
> > think is what the Founders wanted for the TS, although I 
understand 
> > some people may consider it differently of may need another 
> approach. 
> > What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon the Adyar TS, 
> > because it damages the whole movement, and is far below every 
> > theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
Mahatma 
> KH 
> > says about the elementals putting in activity by a person who 
goes 
> to 
> > denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy in something 
> > constructive).
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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