Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00242)

Cass, I think what you said is very important to bear in mind, 
because when in a movement that attitude of being "more interested in 
whom to read rather than on what the teachings mean to them" spread, 
it is the end of the movement, at least in its inner life.


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Frank,
>   My theory is that those you mention that followed HPB were not 
necessarily her successors but messengers who reinforced the 
teachings given.  For me, Purucker was able to translate teachings 
from the Secret Doctrine that I found too abtuse for my intellect.  
After reading Purucker I felt that I then understood what HPB was 
getting at.  
>    
>   My thing about Theosophy, and especially Theos-Talk is that it 
has become academic, scholarstic and historical.  Whenever I post an 
article as I recently did it receives no response.  This tells me 
that many theosophists are more interested in whom to read rather 
than on what the teachings mean to them.  I must at the same time 
make it clear that I have been helped immensely by several posters 
who have shared their knowledge with me and have been able to steer 
me in the right direction - these are few and far between and no who 
they are.
>    
>   I agree also that going down the path of one World Religion is 
following the steps of organized religions which always leads to 
division and confrontation.  Spirituality and Religion have been 
confused, to be religious is not necessarily being spiritual.  My 
thinking is that the work has to be done by each soul which might 
mean belonging to all religions, at different times, coming to the 
conclusion I imagine that truth has to be found after wading through 
many lifetimes of disappointment and disallusionment.  And until we 
are taken under the wing by a higher evolved soul our progress will 
be as slow as a herd of turtles.  In the meantime all I can do is 
to "do unto others as they would do unto me", and even that is a 
challenge in day to day existence.
>    
>   Cass
>    
>   
> 
> Frank Reitemeyer <dzyan@...> wrote:
>           Daniel:
> I don't have much time right now to reply in a more complete way to
> your email below but will just jot down several comments.
> 
> Frank:
> Thanks. I'm in a hurry, too.
> 
> Daniel:
> Maybe what you say above is true, but at the same time your response
> reminds me of typical replies from some Leadbeater, Bailey, and
> Prophet students who have used that SAME, IDENTICAL argument ("he
> [that is, the critic] sticks on words and catches not the sense) to
> defend Leadbeater's, Bailey's and Prophet's "versions" of Theosophy!
> 
> I was told by one Bailey student that if I only had "intuition" I
> would see that Bailey's teachings are a continuation and expansion 
of
> HPB's....
> 
> Frank:
> I see. That's the reason why we should not stick on words.
> A says B is the murder. B says A is the murder. Who is right?
> 
> Daniel:
> But Frank, I never said that "the occult machines have stopped."
> That is your interpretation, not mine.
> 
> And who said "further advancement" was not possible?
> 
> Frank:
> I know that do did not wrote it.
> Yes, it is my interpretation of your possible meaning.
> I am glad to see your have clarified this point, which could be 
> misunderstood.
> 
> Daniel:
> Now there may be various interpretations of what H.P.B. actually
> meant and you may say that what she wrote doesn't apply to Purucker.
> 
> Frank:
> No. In the opposite I say, that what HPB wrote applies VERY WELL to 
> Purucker!!
> Do you see what I mean??
> 
> Daniel:
> But in the above passage [snipped, HPB's mention of 1897 closing 
cycle], 
> please note that H.P.B. seems to indicate,
> that at least in certain cases no "further advancement" would be
> possible after 1899! Not to mention HPB's comment that "No Master of
> Wisdom from the East will appear..."
> 
> Frank:
> Right. But were is the problem??
> HPB was right, as history has proofed, no further advancement after 
1897 was 
> possible, after the enemies from within had began to destroy the 
> Theosophical Movement.
> Tingley and Purucker were sent to save as much as possible. That 
was shown 
> to Blavatsky by her teacher in birds-eye vision to give her hope.
> History has proofen that without Judge, Tingley, Purucker Theosophy 
today 
> would be regarded as a clever trick to destroy Germany for the 
launching of 
> a world republic.
> Theosophist would be occupied by astral travels, past lifes 
research and 
> initiations into mayavic secrets.
> She was also quite right, that no Master was to be appear, they 
only sent 
> their messengers.
> The Masters, who work in the West, were already on their post.
> 
> That you quote HPB in the connection to Purucker lets me assume 
that you 
> this that GdeP cannot be a successor of HPB, no O.H., no messenger 
of the 
> Masters in the guruparampara, because you interpret HPB's statement 
in that 
> way, that it cannot be.
> If this is your interpretation, then it's a wrong one.
> 
> Daniel:
> And she specifically says:
> 
> "....the time for such priceless acquisition is limited...."
> 
> And last but not least, G. de Purucker died in 1942. 65 years ago!
> 
> Frank:
> Mmmh, Daniel, I'm puzzled.
> What do you want me to say?
> HPB said to her lay chelas that in this incarnation they have only 
six or 
> seven years left until 1897 to recognize the next messenger and to 
work 
> before it to make him appear!!!!
> Obviously, some HPB students did hard spiritual work, because as a 
result KT 
> and GdeP appeared as successors, otherwise they were withdrawn.
> Was KT announced in 1897 after one secret year of probation for the 
> Theosophcial Movement as HPB's leagl successor and as Leader of the 
TM and 
> was she elected as Leader for life by 5,000 delegates, the biggest 
> theosophical convention in historical times, or not?
> And what has HPB's warning to her lay chelas, not to fail, not to 
make her 
> last incanation a failure, to do with the death of GdeP?????
> Please clarify.
> 
> Daniel:
> Where is Purucker's successor?
> 
> Frank:
> If you ask three people, you will get four answers.
> Ask the TS in Hannover, Germany, and they will say, their late 
leader 
> Hermann Knoblauch (died around 2003) was the legal successor.
> Ask the Pasadena people and they will say, Conger was it.
> Ask the Point Loma people in the Netherlands (a German state, 
stolen from 
> the German Reich by the Jesuits in 1648) and they will say, it was 
Hartley.
> 
> If you ask me, I say you it was neither of them and GdeP's 
successor is 
> there were the original E.S. and T.S. Headquarters of 1875 are.
> 
> Daniel:
> With Purucker's death, have "the occult machines" stopped?
> 
> Frank:
> Of course not. But is seems the great Ones now use other channels 
than the 
> TM for the dissemination of new teachings and the theosophcial 
organisations 
> are becoming museums.
> 
> Daniel:
> Furthermore, have any "new teachings" been given out since 1942?
> Where are they? And if not, why were they not given out?
> 
> Frank:
> Yes, a lot. The Kalachakra tantra, the Tibetan book of the Dead 
(around 
> 1935), the Qumran texts, the Lotus sutra and much more unknown and 
> disappeared texts are available now in the West in Western tongue 
for the 
> first time.
> 
> Daniel:
> Is any "further advancement" possible since his death?
> 
> It will be interesting to see how you answer this question about
> the post Purucker era.
> 
> Frank:
> I hope you are satisfied with my answers.
> If not, we should discuss further.
> 
> Perhaps you know that for Tingley the foundation of modern 
Theosophy in the 
> English speaking world was understood by her not as a final thing, 
but only 
> as a first stage. She was very eager, to establish and organize 
Theosophy in 
> another country, with another culture and language as a second 
> stage.Obviously this second stage (further augemention and 
advancement of 
> the basic doctrines in a forein land is obviously usual as we see 
it with 
> Gautama's teaching, which were preserved and well commented in a 
foreign 
> land - Tibet) HPB had also in mind, when the final copy, ready to 
the 
> printer, of the REAL thrid volume of the Secret Doctrine was 
withdrawn until 
> the theosophists would understand the first two volumes).
> Obviously, KT's plans failed, because of the big boycott from the 
enemies 
> from within. Neither the theosophical world, nor the outer world 
have 
> progressed morally much since then and it seems we are already far 
back in 
> the occult schedule.
> 
> 
> 
>          
> 
>        
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