Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00130)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pablo Sender
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World John Algeo on Modern Theosophy


Pablo writes:
I'm afraid your argument is too weak from my point of view.
[snip}
To begin with, if that is your reasoning, then Annie Besant, being
member of the I.G., was in a far better position of knowing what were
her "secret teachings" than G. de Purucker, since he did not even
meet HPB!!!!!!

Frank answers:
You are kidding me, don't?
Why do you KNOW whether GdeP and HPB met or met not?
At least she had some knowledge of him, otherwise she could not talk to 
Judge about GdeP or KT.

Do you seriously say, that meeting HPB is your touchstone whether ones 
interpretation is correct?
Then all waht Sinnett wrote is correct, because he met HPB.
I judge GdeP not by his outer signs or declarations or meetings, but from an 
inside logic.
And the 12-globes-model is very logical and does not contradict HPB.
Obviously this teaching was above the lay chela degree of I.G., to which 
Besant belonged.

But when you lay great stress to personal meetings and you prefer outer 
signs of authority:
What do you say about the occult ring of HPB, which was handed down by 
Tingley in 1929 to GdeP?
Is that not proof enough to you?
As Elsie Benjamin was present at that incident she later on spoke with 
Jinarajadasa abou tthe occult ring, who wear the imitation HPB gave to 
Besant.
J. was up then of the opinion that he had the true ring!!! Only when Mrs. 
Benjamin declared him the details, that the imitation is different and has 
no lock, he realized the situation.

Does that not support Judge's and Ayer's view in 1895 that the Adyar HQ was 
meant as an exoteric HQ, while the esoteric HQ remained in New York?

Pablo writes:
On that line of reasoning I could say that the
teaching of Mars and Mercury was too secret to be known publicly at
that moment, and that HPB refused the teaching in the SD just to veil
Sinnett's remarks. Isn't it far more possible than your proposal?

Frank answers:
In no way it is possible. The blind argument is but flimsy, a fine excuse by 
Besant, because she was not spiritual strong enough (that is power of 
intellect), to concede own mistakes or errors (with the exception of her 
statement about Judge on her death bed).
Mars has its own chain and does not belong to the Earth chain, either with 
blind or no blind.

Pablo writes:
On the other hand, since HPB and the Masters said there is a Nirvana
after Globe G, taking the same time as the period of activity, and
HPB offered a whole chronology with the times for each globe, round,
chain, etc., if you follow the calculations, it is not possible to
add 5 more Globes!!!!!

Frank asnwers:
Gosh!! What a clever calculation!!
And scientists believed that man can never ride on a train, because man dies 
when riding more than 20 mph.
I concede: The universe is as much big as Pablo can count!
God wrote the Holy Bible and describes the life of man in detail. There is 
no mention of a second life.
So it is not possible - on the word of god! - to add more Earth lifes!

Pablo writes:
But that is only one example about de Purucker's teachings. There are
many inconsistencies in his teaching if you take Blavatsky's as the
last word.

Frank answers:
Only to dead-letter believers or mental lazy people there are 
inconsistencies.
For Blavatsky students who count more for her spirit than for her words, 
GdeP is a goldmine of first hand explanation of the occult philosophy.
When he took over in 1874 the body of the dying Purucker child near Ney 
York, HPB arrived in New York, too.
What a strange coincidence that the first and last messenger in the row of 
which HPB spoke arrived at the same time.
Judge wrote that HPB several time spoke to him about a mystery school in the 
West which she hoped to build.
Strange, that it was GdeP, who gave the impulse to it in 1896, some months 
year before the trial period for the Theosophical Movement has ended.

Pablo writes:
What????!!!! In 1888 the G de Purucker was living in Switzerland, and
only in 1892 he attended a theosophical lecture in San Diego for the
first time.

Frank answers:
Maybe. I'm writing without my bookshelf. Perhaps I intermix it with the 
launching of the Point Loma Lodge in 1888.
At least GdeP was in his youth, when he was around 20 years old, initiated 
by Judge.

Pablo writes:
On the other hand, HPB's prediction was meant for the year 1975.
Since nothing happened at that time, I don't know how do you
reconcile the never-erring statements of HPB with that fact.

Frank answers:
Really? I think she had both the inner and outer messengers in mind.
That nothing happened around 1975 is a strange opinion.
It happened exactly what HPB has forseen in her picture puzzle of her last 
photo:
http://www.theosophycanada.com/pics/slide38.jpg

She really openly mentions not only her inner successors, but also her outer 
successor for the last quarter of the next century.

Pablo writes:
I think the first step to be a theosophist is to be very conscious of
our psychological processes.

Frank answers:
Very goof for a psychologist.
I think a theosophist HPB had in meant is very concious of his spiritual 
processes.

Pablo writes:
Otherwise, we are caught by our
ignorance.

Frank anwers:
You say it.

Pablo writes:
If anybody wants to support some theosophist's teachings,
he has the right to do it. But he has to be sincere enough to
recognize on what basis he does that.
In spite of you claiming to stick to HPB's teachings, to me it is

Frank answers:
Above you cirticize me rather to support GdeP's teachings, which according 
to your (psychological) understanding are not in spiritual concordance with 
HPB.
Now you say I stick on HPB's teachings - which, BTW, would be against HPB's 
teachings...:-))
Very funny you are.

Pablo writes:
obvious you are supporting certain teachings because they were given
by certain group of people.

Frank answers:
Obviously your psychological understanding of divine things forces you to 
speculations which are projections of your own mind.
To me the 12-globe-model is a true teachings because it is logical to me.
OTOH, it is quite true that I have much respect and trust in GdeP, that's 
beceause by experience over the years he so far has never disappointed me in 
my studies.
I was never forced to relearn as Besant or Leadbeater students must when 
they want to grow. I know of what I speak, because I had such people weeping 
in my former study group.

Pablo writes:
If de Purucker would have said Mars and
Mercury are part of our chain, you would be supporting that teaching,
and declaring Besant's teachings about the 12 Globes as pseudo-
Theosophy.

Frank answers:
How much psychological insight you have!
I think you have practically no idea what HPB means when she speaks of the 
spiritual soul.

Perhaps it is you´r way, when GdeP would reject the 12-globes-model that you 
would support that model just because to irk GdeP.
Wecome  to the kindergarten of Theosophy!

Pablo writes:
I may say "I believe
Annie Besant was a real occultist, I don't consider G. de Purucker as
a spiritual person, therefore I trust in Annie Besant teachings and
not in de Purucker's." That's alright.

Frank answers:
>From you psychological point of view you may be right.

Pablo writes:
But what is wrong from my point of view is to be unaware of, or
unwilling to recognize, the true reasons behind our position; and

Frank anwers:
Why "our position"?
It is only you point of vew in which you are unaware.
What do you know about my unawareness?
Do you think that when I would regard Besant as a spiritual person I would 
grow in your eyes from unawareness to awareness?
That's funny, like the mouse who says to the elephant that mice are bigger 
than elephants and the elephant has no psychological awareness!
>From that what you wrote her, Pablo, I conclude that something is wrong with 
your mind.
It is an experience I very often make with people who are delighted by 
Besant and Leadbeater.
In fact, when I rethink the last 15 or so years, I have never met a person 
with a healthy mind which supports them.
Or it was the other way round: I can't recall having met a Besant or 
Leadbeater supporter with a healthy mind.
They all were strange, high emotional, egoistical persons, psychics, if not 
lunatics, always in company with megalomania.

Pablo writes:
also, being our position so fragile in those subjects far beyond our
perception, I don't think it is intelligent to say so authoritatively
that "this is pseudo-Theosophy, and this comes from the dzyan-school-
and-what-not-else".

Frank answers:
I see! To develop the power of discrimination between true theosoophy and 
pseudo-theosophy, as HPB and her successors all did, and which is the first 
requirement of the Dzyan school, is not intelligent to oyur psychological 
Besant-Leadbeater scheme. Funny!
Peace is war and freedom is slavery! You are also a true believer in Orwell, 
it seems.
In pukka Theosophy it is rather non-intelligent not to recognize 
pseudo-theosophy.