Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00028)

Hello Nigel,
I was reading through the introduction to Sri Madhava Ashish's "Man 
Son of Man" and came across this quote which I thought had a relation 
to your comments .

It says:

"This is the purpose of such an enquiry as this into the genesis of 
the universe and the genesis of man. It is one of the ways in which 
we may hope to rediscover that basic unity of conscious purpose which 
underlies the surface chaos of our world.

Certain half-baked Vedantists abuse true teaching that good and evil 
are transcended in states of being beyond space and time by applying 
it to their daily lives in justification of amoral behavior.

This is to confuse eternity with time. In eternity, where all is one, 
there is neither right nor wrong neither order nor chaos. In time, 
where all is multiple, there are both order and the chaos into which 
order falls.

Yet out of chaos we reach up first to re-establish order in 
multiplicity and then to partake in the unity which supports the 
whole.

But before we can attain to direct perception of the timeless truth 
we who live in time need a rationally acceptable guide to behavior 
which is based on our perception of the truth and its immutable 
values.

Because our understanding is limited, such a code of behavior will be 
but an interpretation of the truth. Nevertheless it must be a genuine 
interpretation and not a travesty."  


The way I relate to this is by remembering the law of correspondences 
and the principle of "as above, so below", every effort we make to 
try and discern the truth, no matter how trivial the matter may seem 
to be, is contributing to the energy of truthfulness in the world. It 
seems to me that this is spiritual path working if our motive is 
genuinely there to see things with clear vision or at least a clearer 
vision.


Cheers

Perry


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nhcareyta" <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Adelasie and all
> Adelasie, thank you too for your thoughtful remarks, which for me 
are 
> worthy of the highest consideration. Thank you also for considering 
> my motive to be potentially sincere.
> You paint our vast Theosophical picture in such a manner as to 
> encourage us to consider matters beyond the everyday, often 
> individualistic and limited perspective of our personal minds. Your 
> perspective on this matter seems to arise from a deep and 
worthwhile 
> conviction of acceptance and tolerance perhaps based partly in the 
> sure and demonstrable knowledge that we are none of us perfect and 
> judgement/condemnation is one of the great separating factors 
within 
> the human psyche?
> 
> When considering the Kosmic vista you have expressed I have 
wondered 
> often whether there might be a meeting place in the heart and mind 
> for both this unified state and the essential requirement for 
> individual clarity of perception in our search for the truths of 
life.
> Undoubtedly, we must each find our own place of sincerity in this 
> struggle whilst respecting the chosen place of others. 
> 
>  When studying and considering another's spiritual works, 
demarcation 
> lines usually arise for me, which oftentimes can be subtle and 
> tenuous. These usually involve distinguishing between the 
> writer/lecturer, the pronouncements they profess, their actions and 
> the broader Kosmic picture you elucidate so clearly. Whilst this 
> might appear somewhat separative on the surface, I have found this 
to 
> be a valuable approach in my attempts to determine the accuracy or 
> factual basis and especially wisdom, however and wherever 
> determinable, of the ideas being presented.
> This process assists me to "separate the wheat from the chaff" 
> according to my perception and comprehension, a vital process 
perhaps 
> for the evolvement of compassion and particularly wisdom in 
> Consciousness.
> 
> It is evident that in many areas of life, we must discern and we 
must 
> make decisions, which necessarily forces us to choose one course of 
> action over another. And herein perhaps lies the dilemma. As 
alluded 
> to earlier, how do we choose, whilst maintaining tolerance and 
> acceptance for alternative and perhaps opposing options?
> 
> Through the abovementioned process it appears to me that there are 
> certain matters in life which needs be and must be considered 
either 
> acceptable or unacceptable. 
> Actions such as wilful lies for self-gain, deliberate 
> misrepresentations, debauched acts and the like must be rejected 
and 
> treated as unacceptable. Not to do so actively, or to passively 
avoid 
> or ignore them, implicitly and explicitly supports their 
> perpetuation. In this case we become willing co-dependents in 
> unacceptable behaviour and actions. 
> Moreover, were we not so to do, we might as well habitually and 
> unthinkingly accept and validate all matters, including, to use an 
> extreme example, the moral advice of a person who supports the 
murder 
> of another for financial gain.
> 
> Perhaps the meeting place mentioned earlier involves distinguishing 
> between the person themselves and their words and actions?
> In my work with severely disadvantaged and maladjusted people it 
was 
> entirely appropriate to accept, love and cherish them as struggling 
> souls whilst at the same time not accepting and sometimes utterly 
> condemning their inappropriate actions.
> 
> It is in this manner which I approach the issues surrounding Bishop 
> Leadbeater. As a person, he had obvious difficulties with 
> truthfulness, honesty, accuracy and self-confessed sexual practices 
> with young children. As you rightly state, most of us will also 
have, 
> or have had, similar difficulties with at least some of these.
> As a human being he deserves love, compassion and acceptance as an 
> evolving soul. 
> Some of his actions however deserve admonishment and even 
corrective 
> condemnation at the highest level. 
> 
> This is not perhaps a situation where the "transcendant totality of 
> Truth" is concerned. It is simply a case of human frailty and 
> struggle which needs be addressed and corrected in human terms.
> 
> The questions then arise for me as to how we are to deal with the 
> issues surrounding Bishop Leadbeater. 
> 
> Are we to remain silent as to his intellectual indiscretions, 
thereby 
> perpetuating and supporting them and their energies, and condemning 
> present and future uninformed students to states of misinformation 
> and ignorance? Is this the role of a Theosophist, a seeker after 
> truth?
> 
> Is discussion of these matters actually promoting "the Forces of 
> Separation and Disintegration" as you suggest?
> From my perspective, limited such as it is, some, but not all of 
> Bishop Leadbeater's actions and many of his pronouncements caused, 
> and were in themselves probably the most separating and separative 
in 
> the history of our modern theosophical movement. 
> Where perceived separation arises do we not have a responsibility 
to 
> expose it for the sake of Unity?
> 
> Does "forgetting" these matters as you advise, risk devaluing and 
> even dismissing the severity of them and their effect?
> 
> Does true Harmony arise from concealing these issues of fact from 
> eager and open students? Or might we be consciously or 
unconsciously 
> hiding from these incidents for the sake of some form of perceived 
> pseudo-harmony? Do we have a moral right so to do?
> 
> These are some of my concerns with respect to the issues concerning 
> Bishop Leadbeater in terms of the Higher rationale you so 
eloquently 
> and passionately offer.
> 
> In all walks of life and with the best of intention of those 
> involved, multitudes of sins have been and still are concealed in 
> spite of their ongoing and present danger. Perhaps we as 
Theosophical 
> students need to be ever alert to this possibility.
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> >
> > Nigel and fellow students, 
> > 
> > Thanks for your well-considered comments. In all things, we are 
> > taught to look to our motives. No one can really say what the 
> motive 
> > of another might be, but it seems to me that yours is sincere. It 
> > never hurts to consider, however, that none of us can see the 
whole 
> > picture. As is suggested in the passage you mention, the human 
> finite 
> > mind is not able to discern the transcendant totality of Truth. 
> > 
> > We may feel, as theosophists, that the whole world should embrace 
> > theosophy. We may feel, based on the benefit we have received 
from 
> > our study, that this or that teacher would benefit others best. 
But 
> > we really don't know these things. We cannot take into 
> consideration 
> > the mind set, the mental ability, the inherent needs, the karma, 
of 
> > the other student. We may assume, if fact, that if we can see 
> through 
> > hypocrisy on the part of a particular teacher or sect, that we 
have 
> > been through that already, and learned to move beyond those 
> > particular limitations. But can we help others by preventing them 
> > from following their path, as we have followed ours? And if we 
take 
> > the trouble to point out the weaknesses and failures of a teacher 
> > revered by another, do we not actually stimulate the student's 
> > devotion to that teacher, no matter how unsuitable, and actually 
> > possibly prolong that student's painful lesson? 
> > 
> > Another issue that seems worth considering is that of solidarity, 
> > unity in action. Theosophy is a fragile vessel at best, a 
spiritual 
> > reality struggling to manifest in a hostile and flawed 
environment. 
> > Those historical theosophists as well as we in the present are 
part 
> > of the movement because they have earned the right to participate 
> in 
> > this cyclic illumination of the mind of humanity, to whatever 
> extent 
> > they are able. Each has an opportunity, earned over eons of 
> > incarnations, to try to help in the Work, and each answers the 
call 
> > according to ability. How can we hope to help in this work by 
> > continually pointing out the flaws and failures of our fellows, 
who 
> > are, in fact and in realilty, ourselves? Do we not owe it to the 
> best 
> > within ourselves to forgive and forget? Why keep the dark parts 
> > alive? Why continually provide ammunition to our eternal enemy, 
the 
> > Forces of Separation and Disintegration? Who among us is so 
> perfect? 
> > Do we forget that the weakness we can see in our brother is only 
> > visible to us because we have the same weakness ourselves? 
> > 
> > Why not let the Masters do their work bringing us whomever of 
Their 
> > children has earned the right to come, and welcome them with 
trust 
> > and love, allowing, and even encouraging them, to do the best 
they 
> > can with this opportunity, which is said to be the greatest ever 
> > offered to humanity? Why not find it in our hearts to forgive and 
> > forget the weaknesses of our predecessors, realizing that they 
were 
> > only human after all, no better and no worse than we ourselves? A 
> lot 
> > depends upon our actions in these days, and even more on our 
> thoughts 
> > and words.
> > 
> > Adelasie
> > 
> > On 27 Feb 2007 at 3:45, nhcareyta wrote:
> >  
> > > Dear Adelasie and all
> > > 
> > > Adelasie, thank you for your gentle and accommodating 
> contribution 
> > > above. Please permit me to offer a few thoughts.
> > > 
> > > Compassion certainly dissuades us from judging another, 
> particularly 
> > > perhaps in terms of who is right and who is wrong. Buddhism 
after 
> all 
> > > distinguishes between absolute and relative truth and 
Theosophy's 
> > > first fundamental proposition speaks of An Omnipresent, 
Eternal, 
> > > Boundless and Immutable Principle on which all speculation is 
> > > impossible since it transcends the power of human conception 
and 
> can 
> > > only be dwarfed by any human conception or similitude. It is 
> beyond 
> > > the range and reach of thought..." etc.
> > > 
> > > This passage has always given me pause for thought both in 
terms 
> of 
> > > its expressed limitation of discursive mind to be ultimately 
> > > accurate, as well as the unlimited nature of mind in its 
essence.
> > > 
> > > Compassion doesn't however dissuade us from discernment where 
> > > compassion is considered a natural extension of wisdom and 
> knowledge. 
> > > Many years ago, at the beginning of my career in the field of 
> > > welfare, it was evident that there were many people who were 
> > > apparently compassionately motivated, volunteering in church 
and 
> > > welfare groups. At that time these were the only people helping 
> those 
> > > who were then termed the "underprivileged". When government 
> commenced 
> > > funding welfare projects to employ trained personnel, we as 
> employees 
> > > realised almost immediately that however well motivated and 
kind 
> > > hearted some of these volunteers were, a considerable 
proportion 
> of 
> > > their assistance was uninformed, highly inappropriate and 
> unhelpful 
> > > and in some cases such as suicide prevention, potentially 
> dangerous. 
> > > Much of the advice from many of these well-meaning volunteers 
had 
> > > more to do with their own issues of insecurity, feelings of 
> > > inadequacy and a need to feel worthwhile. Often status and 
> > > recognition were also priorities for these hard working souls. 
> The 
> > > decisions we had to make with respect to some of these 
volunteers 
> had 
> > > nothing to do with judgement/condemnation, rather they arose 
from 
> > > highly considered, objective assessments of what we carefully 
and 
> > > compassionately thought to be in the better interests of the 
> > > disadvantaged client group, as well as the volunteers 
themselves, 
> as 
> > > best as our professional expertise could determine.  
> > > I mention this experience to highlight that in certain 
> circumstances 
> > > in life, there can be a right and wrong way to speak and act, 
or 
> at 
> > > least a more right and more wrong approach, particularly if we 
> > > perceive and project ourselves as an authority.      
> > > 
> > > Bishop Leadbeater, as well meaning as he may have been, was 
> > > demonstrably untruthful and/or inaccurate in many of his 
> > > pronouncements, whilst projecting himself as an authority. 
> > > Authority figures naturally need and attract followers, who 
> > > themselves desire to be led. Historically, the dangers of 
blindly 
> > > following a perceived leader are well recorded in terms of the 
> > > psychological effect on the follower as well as on the putative 
> > > authority figure.
> > > 
> > > My raising the issues of Bishop Leadbeater's lies and 
> > > misrepresentations has nothing to do with judging/condemning 
him 
> as a 
> > > person. He was possibly a sincere individual who thought he 
knew 
> that 
> > > which was best for his followers. Rather it has to do with 
> discerning 
> > > the facts and fallacies of his many statements as best as can 
be 
> > > determined. From this, hopefully we can more accurately discern 
> > > whether his pronouncements are more likely to be accurate, 
> truthful 
> > > and thereby genuinely helpful, or whether they are more likely 
to 
> be 
> > > the opposite.
> > > 
> > > From my investigations thus far, apart from some of Bishop 
> > > Leadbeater's commentaries relating to the spiritual path, which 
> are 
> > > after all mostly a restating of Augustinian/Aquinian morality 
and 
> > > ethics, many of his statements have proven to be either wrong, 
> wrong 
> > > minded or sufficiently inaccurate and untruthful as for me to 
> > > consider them significantly unreliable, unhelpful and 
potentially 
> > > dangerous for the unwary student.
> > > 
> > > From my current perspective and state of awareness, compassion 
> for 
> > > this unwary student, which was myself many years ago, as well 
as 
> for 
> > > Bishop Leadbeater himself, is my motivation for raising these 
> matters 
> > > in this forum.
> > > 
> > > To live and let live is not acceptable in certain 
circumstances. 
> To 
> > > adopt this mindset in totality makes it too easy for some of us 
> to be 
> > > led along by the nose whilst granting free licence and immunity 
> to 
> > > those who feel the need to lead. 
> > > 
> > > Kind regards
> > > Nigel
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
>