HPB & St. Germain
Nov 30, 2006 04:35 AM
by carlosaveline
Carl,
You don't need to get to technicalities or word-games. Try to get the broad ideas.
Did St. Germain write anything comparable to HPB's Teachings? No. That was my point.
If you think that Mesmer's higher self is more advanced than St. Germain's, I respect your views. What's the problem? No one.
But perhaps you will see that in the ML and in HPB Writings St. Germain's work in the 18th century is more reffered to and more highly mentioned than Mesmer's. Yet, this is for each student to evaluate and you and I do not have to agree upon these secondary and terciary issues.
Regards.
Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cópia:
Data:Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:57:03 -0000
Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB & St. Germain
> Carlos,
>
> You wrote:
> "Mesmer did scarcely more than phenomena."
> Not true. But the phenomena he did was very impotent.
>
> And "True, St. Germain did not write."
> Not true. It was not much, be he wrote.
>
> And "Both HPB and St. Germain came with a group of souls to work in
> their
> end-of-centuries."
> True, but it was still Mesmer that was the Messenger for the 18th
> century in the West.
>
> I will recommend you to read the memoires of the members of these
> 18th century "group of souls", and if you have do it again.
>
> Carl
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > Mesmer did scarcely more than phenomena.
> >
> > Phenomena was a minor aspect of HPB's work.
> >
> > True, St. Germain did not write.
> > But St. Germain was dealing with the course of History as a whole,
> as HPB was.
> >
> > St. Germain and HPB were facing the tide of world events", and
> this seems to correspond to a particular moment in the lives of
> Initiates, that moment described in the NT Gospels.
> >
> > I am not saying that Mesmer was not significant. And Cagliostro
> was meaningful, too.
> >
> > I am not saying that this viewpoint of mine is the only one
> possible.
> >
> > I am not not saying that HPB was the only Messenger in the end of
> the 19th century, either.
> >
> > Both HPB and St. Germain came with a group of souls to work in
> their end-of-centuries.
> >
> >
> > Regards, Carlos.
> >
> >
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Cópia:
> >
> > Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:15:55 -0000
> >
> > Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB & St. Germain
> >
> > > What I meant was that Mesmer was Blavatsky's contra part as The
> > > Messenger. I also see St. Germain as a greater Occultist then
> > > Mesmer, but it was Mesmer that was The Messenger to the West for
> the
> > > 18th century.
> > > So also Mesmer had direct contact with the source, and the
> source
> > > was and is the Brotherhood of the Masters, which is not a
> > > geographical place.
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carl,
> > > >
> > > > You say:
> > > >
> > > > "I personally can't see any reason to believe that St. Germain
> was
> > > > Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century."
> > > >
> > > > You are free not to see that, but both HPB and the ML
> suggested
> > > the idea, which is far from being originally mine.
> > > >
> > > > Mesmer and others (including Cagliostro) did not have the same
> > > degree of occult learning as HPB and St. Germain had. Both had
> > > direct contact with the source, and for both "HOME" was -- in
> the
> > > Himalayas, not in Europe.
> > > >
> > > > Carlos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Cópia:
> > > >
> > > > Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:59:31 -0000
> > > >
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World The 18th century Messengers
> > > >
> > > > > The 18th century Messengers
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally can't see any reason to believe that St.
> Germain
> > > was
> > > > > Blavatsky's contra part during the 18th century. More are
> > > pointing
> > > > > at Dr. Franz Anton Mesmer, which had at his side as co-
> worker,
> > > St.
> > > > > Germain (Mesmer's "Judge"), Cagliostro (Mesmer's "Olcott",
> the
> > > > > organiser) and initially Chev. Casanova (similar to Crowley
> in
> > > many
> > > > > ways, maybe a fallen lay chela). Both the memoirs of Mesmer
> and
> > > > > Casanova are giving some interesting information on this
> > > subject,
> > > > > and the biographical notes in trial protocol of Cagliostro's
> as
> > > well.
> > > > >
> > > > > And there is nothing at al, that are pointing in the
> direction
> > > that
> > > > > Prince Rakoczi and Count St. Germain was one and the same
> > > person.
> > > > >
> > > > > Who of al this 18th century occultists, which was (or are
> today)
> > > an
> > > > > Adept, I do not dare to say, but some of them was defiantly
> > > Chelas
> > > > > or Lay Chelas.
> > > > >
> > > > > Carl
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Konstantin,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is consensus, see Clara Codd's book for example, that
> St.
> > > > > Germain as 18th century incarnation was not a full Adept.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Besides, it is a firm consensus and common knowledge that
> only
> > > > > disciples, and never Adepts, mix with public and
> > > political/social
> > > > > events in the way St. Germain (or Cagliostro) interfered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason for that is that an Adept is outside short term
> > > human
> > > > > karma and he is not willing to go against evolution and go
> back
> > > in
> > > > > his path.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is also a key concept to understand the necessary
> > > Autonomy of
> > > > > the Disciple.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the ML, Masters explain that if Disciples were not
> > > Autonomous
> > > > > and Responsible for their own actions, the Karma would
> belong to
> > > > > their Teachers, and not to them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Therefore St. Germain, who strongly interacted with
> political,
> > > > > public and social issues, was not an Adept.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The incarnation in which an Initiate will get the decisive
> > > > > initiation needs to be a new one. Magnetical reasons
> included.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Besides, the Leadbeaterian ritualistic fancies, ascribed
> to
> > > St.
> > > > > Germain, clash in substance and content with the Masters'
> > > teachings,
> > > > > while we know that the Teachings of different Masters never
> > > clash
> > > > > except in wording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, you can see that the large amount of wild
> > > > > ritualisticfancies (including the ER) created by poor
> Leadbeater
> > > and
> > > > > ascribed to "St. Germain" were no more than fancies, while
> an
> > > Adept
> > > > > does not do that kind of thing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, you see there is a mass of hints and evidences about
> that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards, Carlos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cópia:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Data:Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:31:35 -0000
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: St. Germain Not Leadbeaterian, At
> All
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rakoczi is a name which also corresponds to the same
> > > > > incarnation as
> > > > > > > "St. Germain".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far I know, nor Leadbeater neither any other
> theosophical
> > > > > author
> > > > > > > who regards St. Germain an adept, didn't hold an opinion
> > > that he
> > > > > died
> > > > > > > in the end of 18th century.
> > > > > > > Leadbeater when wrote about 1911 meant certainly the
> same
> > > > > incarnation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From the other sources we can conclude that St. Germain
> was
> > > an
> > > > > adept
> > > > > > > already in 18th century, otherwise it would be hard to
> > > explain
> > > > > how the
> > > > > > > old ladies recognized in him a man whom they knew in
> their
> > > > > youth, and
> > > > > > > still looking young when they were already old.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So Leadbeater had to need to invent any new names and
> > > > > incarnations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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