Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01376)

Carl,

Thanks. 

I do not think it is practical to discuss in Theos-talk (and probably elsewhere as well) the relative degrees of confidence which William Judge had on this or that other among his closest colleagues, some one hundred and 10 years ago.

The broad lines of theosophical history tell us that it is from William Judge's work after 1891, and thanks to this co-workers, that the Theosophical Teaching was preserved; and along with the Teaching, its Spirit. 

I now see that Living Spirit ( along with the written teachings ) present not only in the ULT, but also in the Pasadena TS; in the Point Loma groups;  in the Edmonton TS and in several other groups and independent initiatives, including many an Adyar TS student. 

There is a failed political operation which tried to stimulate and exaggerate those past differences.  It is true that differences still exist. It is also true that they are of secondary, or perhaps terciary, importance.  

That which unites HPB/Masters students is much greater than any differences among them. 

I also see several positive aspects in "World Goodwill" and its work for the UN and for the planetary consciousness/citizenship. 


Regards,   Carlos. 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:08:23 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: Crosbie And Judge

> Carlos,
> 
> If Judge trusted so much in Crosbie as you and ULT believe, tell us 
> then way Judge didn't gave Crosbie any more authorities in the EST 
> of New England then to administrate the outgoing correspondence, eg. 
> to put letters in envelops, lick on the paste, put a stamp on and 
> post it? 
> The later Mrs. A. Conger worked together with Crosbie in Boston 
> during these years, and stated this later very clear. 
> 
> Carl
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > Fortunately or unfortunately, you seem to have limited yourself to 
> the 1920s. 
> > 
> > I will try to give you a more updated vision of the theosophical 
> movement. 
> > 
> > You say: 
> > 
> > 
> > ============================================
> > > In the 1923 edition of "The United Lodge
> > > of Theosophists: Its Mission and its Future",
> > > Theosophy Company official(s) wrote:
> > > 
> > > "During all the troublous period 1893-6 Mr. Crosbie
> > > SHARED to an extent UNKNOWN and UNDREAMT OF by others
> > > in the burdens and the CONFIDENCE of Mr. Judge." p. 6.
> > > caps added.
> > 
> > =============================================
> > 
> > 
> > I say: 
> > 
> > 1) If you ignore some historical 1893-1896 events, maybe the 
> problem is not with the events themselves, but with your absence of 
> knowledge about them. 
> > 
> > 2) The fact that Mr. Judge had a trust-relationship with Robert 
> Crosbie (which is a fact) does not mean, at all, that he did not 
> have trust-relationships with other theosophists as well. Judge did 
> have other trust-relationships, of course. So please don't use those 
> words to suggest that according to the ULT Mr. Judge only had trust 
> in Robert Crosbie, and in no one else. I hope you can understand 
> this. 
> > 
> > 3) Since the middle of the 20th century, the movement has changed 
> and evolved. Your view of the relationship between the ULT and other 
> Blavatsky/Judge groups and institutions is, let's say, "slightly 
> outdated". 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:39:59 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Theosophy Company Statement about Crosbie and 
> Judge
> > 
> > > Theosophy Company statement about
> > > Robert Crosbie & William Q. Judge
> > > 
> > > ============================================
> > > In the 1923 edition of "The United Lodge
> > > of Theosophists: Its Mission and its Future",
> > > Theosophy Company official(s) wrote:
> > > 
> > > "During all the troublous period 1893-6 Mr. Crosbie
> > > SHARED to an extent UNKNOWN and UNDREAMT OF by others
> > > in the burdens and the CONFIDENCE of Mr. Judge." p. 6.
> > > caps added.
> > > 
> > > Now it should be pointed out that no source documents
> > > are given; that is, no evidence given to support this general
> > > statement. 
> > > 
> > > But if one accepts the above statement at face value, what
> > > are the IMPLICATIONS of the statement?
> > > 
> > > It would appear that the writer of the above statement
> > > wants the reader to believe that Mr. Crosbie was in a
> > > somewhat unique position. Crosbie shared the
> > > confidence of Judge to an extent unknown and UNDREAMT
> > > OF by others.
> > > 
> > > OBTW, who are the "others"? Judge's other close
> > > associates and friends???
> > > 
> > > But if indeed Crosbie shared the confidence of Judge
> > > as described above, then wasn't Crosbie as Judge's
> > > "confidant" in A VERY GOOD POSITION to know about the TRUE
> > > relationship between Judge and Tingley?
> > > 
> > > Now consider Robert Crosbie's own testimony.
> > > 
> > > Here is what Judge's "confidant" (Robert Crosbie)
> > > publicly proclaimed on two separate occasions:
> > > 
> > > ". . . Katherine Tingley . . . was appointed by
> > > William Q. Judge as his successor."
> > > 
> > > "We feel that he [William Q. Judge] knows of the
> > > self-sacrificing efforts made by the faithful ones,
> > > and that those efforts have been called forth by his
> > > chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, 'she
> > > is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting
> > > as time.' "
> > > 
> > > In this second statement by Crosbie, he quotes Judge
> > > as saying of Mrs. Tingley:
> > > 
> > > "she is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and as
> > > lasting as time."
> > > 
> > > Where did Crosbie obtain this Judge quote about
> > > Tingley?
> > > 
> > > This quote comes from one of Judge's diaries.
> > > 
> > > Did Crosbie ever see one of Judge's controversial diaries?
> > > 
> > > In 1932, Cyrus Field Willard wrote:
> > > 
> > > ". . . Robert Crosbie assured me that he [Judge] had
> > > [designated Katherine Tingely as his successor] and
> > > [Crosbie] also told me he had seen Judge's occult
> > > diary in which it was so stated. . . . ."
> > > 
> > > ". . . Later Crosbie came to me after he had left
> > > Point Loma [in 1904] and said that she never had been
> > > appointed by Judge. I recalled to him that he
> > > [Crosbie] had said after Judge's death when he
> > > returned to Boston that he [Judge] had and he denied
> > > it, and I told him either he was lying then or had
> > > been lying in Boston. . . . "
> > > 
> > > If Crosbie was really Judge's "confidant", is it so
> > > unreasonable to suppose that Crosbie had also seen
> > > Judge's diary as Willard claims?
> > > 
> > > Crosbie's estimation of Tingley as found in the above
> > > statements is corroborated by ANOTHER "confidant" and
> > > close friend of Judge's --- Jasper Niemand.
> > > 
> > > Jasper Niemand wrote:
> > > 
> > > ". . . the present Outer Head [Mrs. Tingley] has for
> > > two years past assisted Mr. Judge in the inner work of
> > > the School as his associate and equal. Some of these
> > > Councillors were doing important work under her
> > > directions, and by the order of Mr. Judge, for some
> > > time before he passed away. . . . For myself, I may
> > > say that as early as June, 1894, Mr. Judge told me of
> > > the standing of the present Outer Head in the school,
> > > and spoke of her work at that time and for the future.
> > > I am one among several to whom he so spoke himself.
> > > . . . ."
> > > 
> > > Jasper Niemand was the compiler of the two volumes of
> > > W.Q. Judge's "Letters That Have Helped Me."
> > > 
> > > Notice what Jasper wrote:
> > > 
> > > "I am one among several to whom he [Judge] so spoke
> > > himself."
> > > 
> > > In other words, Jasper also SHARED the CONFIDENCE of Mr.
> > > Judge.
> > > 
> > > BOTTOMLINE:
> > > 
> > > If Robert Crosbie really shared the confidence of Mr. Judge as
> > > the Theosophy Company publication ASSERTS then is it
> > > unreasonable to think that Crosbie ALSO KNEW what
> > > Niemand knew about the relationship between Mr. Judge
> > > and Mrs. Tingley?
> > > 
> > > Compare Crosbie's statements above about Mrs. Tingley with those 
> of
> > > Niemand.
> > > 
> > > Some food for thought.
> > > 
> > > The sources of the quotes found in this email can be
> > > found at:
> > > 
> > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokeswqjktcon.htm
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > 
> > > 
> > > =====
> > > Daniel H. Caldwell
> > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
> > > http://blavatskyarchives.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
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