Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00835)

Christina, 

You have the  right to believe that Leabeater was not a rascist.  


Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:29:13 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL not AGAINST INDIGENOUS PEOPLES

> I have the same book and I stay saying Leadbeater have nothing to do 
> with racism and all things said about him.
> That you see that different, say something about you.
> Christina.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Christina,
> > 
> > Hi. 
> > 
> > As my written references say, I am working with the 
> India/Adyar/TPH 1978 edition of "The Perfume". 
> > 
> > It is all there, the rascism, the contempt for black people, for 
> indigenous people, the lack of basic information about the profound 
> ethnic mixing which is the main characteristic in Brazil and in a 
> great part of Latin America...
> > 
> > The pride in killing people with firearms...
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:56:38 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL AGAINST BLACK/INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
> > 
> > > -I have no quest book , but the original from TPH Adyar
> > > Other question:
> > > If we read the conqueror stories of that Red Indians,Spains and 
> so 
> > > on who conquered South America,are they good civilized people?
> > > Also the whites are not always, the only thing I can say 
> Leadbeater 
> > > better could not write is that the blank is the superior race.
> > > That is not at all.
> > > Christina
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "'Cuervo'" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carlos - Christina et al -
> > > > 
> > > > The publishing policy at Quest Books initiated by Helen Zahara 
> > > when 
> > > > she came around 1970 was to edit out all negative racial and 
> > > ethnic 
> > > > comments, especially in the writings of Leadbeater, though I 
> think 
> > > > also in Jinarajadasa's introductory book on Theosophy. There 
> are 
> > > > examples in most of CWL's writings, but it is difficult to 
> find 
> > > the 
> > > > originals of some to compare with.
> > > > 
> > > > Ken
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Christina,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Please look at the pages 167 and 168 of your "The Perfume of 
> > > > Egypt", TPH 1978 edition, and you will find these quotations 
> which 
> > > I 
> > > > comment below:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ooooooooo
> > > > > 
> > > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians": 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid 
> > > civilization, 
> > > > but many others were still savages untamed and untamable ? men 
> who 
> > > > regarded work of any kind as the deepest degradation ? who 
> hated 
> > > the 
> > > > white man with a traditional, unrelenting hatred, and (strange 
> as 
> > > it 
> > > > may seen) more than reciprocated the boundless contempt of the 
> > > blue-
> > > > blooded hidalgo of Spain. It will be no doubt incomprehensible 
> to 
> > > > many of us that a half-naked savage can entertain any other 
> > > feeling 
> > > > than envy for our superior civilization, however much he may 
> > > dislike 
> > > > us; but I can only say that the quite genuine and unaffected 
> > > feeling 
> > > > of the Red Indian towards the white man is pure and 
> unmitigated 
> > > > contempt." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly view of 
> > > human 
> > > > beings: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable portion of the 
> > > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though the 
> > > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that curse 
> from 
> > > its 
> > > > territories; and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as mixed 
> races 
> > > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both its 
> > > parent 
> > > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised them; and 
> > > they 
> > > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer elements' for 
> the 
> > > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately for 
> the 
> > > mass-
> > > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the half-
> breeds 
> > > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to combine 
> all 
> > > the 
> > > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is Leadbeater. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Brazil has been from the very beginning a miscigenation 
> people 
> > > and 
> > > > indigenous people here never present resintence or hated the 
> white 
> > > > people. Their culture was too primitive for that, say. We have 
> > > never 
> > > > had important racial tensions or hatred in Brazil, aas such, 
> > > though 
> > > > there was social violence. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Miscigenation is part of the preparation for the next sub-
> race, 
> > > as 
> > > > HPB writes in the "Secret Doctrine". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > Para:"theos-talk" theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cópia:"carlosaveline" carlosaveline@
> > > > > 
> > > > > Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:00:40 -0300
> > > > > 
> > > > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World CWL AGAINST BLACK AND INDIGENOUS 
> > > PEOPLES
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Dear Friends, 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is about Bishop Leadbeater and his imaginary 
> adventures 
> > > in 
> > > > South America. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > C. Jinarajadasa believed he was there with Leadbeater in a 
> > > > previous body, and that he was his biological younger brother, 
> who 
> > > > was allegedly killed and 'rediscovered' by CWL in Ceylon. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In fact, in a footnote to his autobiographical Postface in 
> the 
> > > > book "The Seven Veils of Consciousness", C. Jinarajadasa 
> states 
> > > that 
> > > > that the true story of his own "previous (and glorious) death 
> in 
> > > > Brazil" is narrated in the chapter "Saved by a Ghost", of the 
> > > > book "The Perfume of Egypt" (2). 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > C.J. believed everything CWL said, and he also writes in 
> the 
> > > > note that the same old silver crucifix which is mentioned in 
> that 
> > > > story was in his possession, as he wrote "The Seven Veils of 
> > > > Consciousness". 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As to Leadbeater, in the preface of his 'The Perfume of 
> > > Egypt", 
> > > > he makes a solemn statement: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "The stories in this book happen to be true." 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Along "Saved By a Ghost", the longest story of the volume, 
> > > > Leadbeater proudly describes how he killed numerous black 
> people 
> > > and 
> > > > indigenous people in South America during his youth. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Of course, common sense says that the story is as illusory 
> as 
> > > > the visits Leabeater made to physical plane civilizations in 
> Mars 
> > > > and Mercury. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But even if it were presented as a `short novel' pure and 
> > > > simple, and not as an autobiographical narration, the content 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > text reveals too much of racism and disrespect against black 
> > > people, 
> > > > indigenous people and their right to live. Leadbeater also 
> uses 
> > > the 
> > > > term "race" not in its theosophical meaning, but in the 
> > > > nationalistic way, as if each country had its own 'race', 
> > > > anticipating what Adolf Hitler would do decades later. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > At p. 167 of the Adyar edition, one starts to read his 
> > > > description of Brazilian people: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "First came the descendants of Spanish and Portuguese 
> > > > conquerors ? a haughty, indolent race; a race courtly and 
> > > > hospitable, by no means without its good qualities, but yet 
> one 
> > > > whose strongest characteristic was an immeasurable contempt 
> (or 
> > > the 
> > > > affectation of it) for all other races whatsoever". 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The amount of illusions-per-line is outstanding here. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > First, Spanish people were never `conquerors' in Brazil. 
> The 
> > > > country was `discovered' and made a colony by Portugal. 
> Second, 
> > > > Portuguese people are not a race; and they cannot be easily 
> > > > described as `indolent'. Third, Portuguese people generaly did 
> not 
> > > > show `contempt' for other `races', and it is for this reason 
> that 
> > > > miscigenation ? intermarriage ? was from the first the main 
> > > > anthropological characteristic of the emerging Brazilian 
> nation. 
> > > > Portuguese people easily created strong personal links with 
> black 
> > > > people and indigenous people. (Of course, colonization was 
> also 
> > > > violent.)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In the next paragraph, "bishop" Leadbeater is even more 
> > > > surprising: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Next came red indians". 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well, there are no `red indians' in Brazil, although the 
> term 
> > > is 
> > > > very common in old North American Far West bang-bang stories, 
> in 
> > > > which hundreds of "bad" Indians get typically killed by a few 
> > > white 
> > > > men usually presented as brave heros. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians": 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid 
> > > > civilization, but many others were still savages untamed and 
> > > > untamable ? men who regarded work of any kind as the deepest 
> > > > degradation ? who hated the white man with a traditional, 
> > > > unrelenting hatred, and (strange as it may seen) more than 
> > > > reciprocated the boundless contempt of the blue-blooded 
> hidalgo of 
> > > > Spain. It will be no doubt incomprehensible to many of us that 
> a 
> > > > half-naked savage can entertain any other feeling than envy 
> for 
> > > our 
> > > > superior civilization, however much he may dislike us; but I 
> can 
> > > > only say that the quite genuine and unaffected feeling of the 
> Red 
> > > > Indian towards the white man is pure and unmitigated 
> contempt." 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What are the problems in these few lines? First, again 
> comes 
> > > the 
> > > > Spanish `hidalgo' (nobleman) apparently ruling Brazil, a 
> country 
> > > > which was independent from Portugal (not Spain), since 1822, 
> and 
> > > was 
> > > > never under any "Spanish' ruling class. Second, the `red 
> Indian' 
> > > > again. Third, indigenous people and did not express hate 
> against 
> > > > white people, and never actively resisted the domination of 
> > > European 
> > > > rulers in Brazil. These two paragraphs simply can't refer to 
> any 
> > > > South American country. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly view 
> of 
> > > > human beings: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable portion of 
> the 
> > > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though the 
> > > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that curse 
> from 
> > > its 
> > > > territories; and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as mixed 
> races 
> > > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both its 
> > > parent 
> > > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised them; and 
> > > they 
> > > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred." 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer elements' 
> for 
> > > the 
> > > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately for 
> the 
> > > mass-
> > > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > > breeds 
> > > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to combine 
> all 
> > > the 
> > > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks." 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is Leadbeater. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But -- what about Theosophy? What does esoteric philosophy 
> > > > really say about the relations between rich and poor nations 
> and 
> > > > among all different ethnical groups, with their varied kinds 
> of 
> > > > colours in the skin? In the "Letters from the Masters", the 
> famous 
> > > > letter known as coming from the "Great Master" says: 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "To achieve the proposed object, a greater, a wiser, and 
> > > > especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the 
> > > low, 
> > > > of the Alpha and the Omega of Society, was determined upon. 
> The 
> > > > white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of 
> fellowship 
> > > > to the dark nations, to call the poor despised `nigger' 
> brother. 
> > > > This prospect may not smile to all, but he is no Theosophist 
> who 
> > > > objects to his principle" (2) 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > One can only conclude, then, that in writing that 
> paragraph 
> > > > Leadbeater was "no theosophist". 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In fact, Leadbeater's vision of human beings as presented 
> in 
> > > > that long story is not only ethically and culturally 
> unacceptable. 
> > > > It is also legally criminal, for racism and stimulation of 
> hatred 
> > > > among people of different skin-colours has been defined as 
> crime 
> > > in 
> > > > Brazil a few years ago. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > One can understand why the Brazilian edition of "Saved By 
> a 
> > > > Ghost" cannot be found in Brazilian bookshops any longer. Yet 
> it 
> > > is 
> > > > still for sale at Adyar, it seems. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ( In another posting, I should refer to Leadbeater's 
> proudly 
> > > > alleged acts of violence leading to death, which, even if seen 
> as 
> > > > fictional, are profoundly untheosophical. ) 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > NOTE:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > (1) "The Perfume of Egypt", by C. W. Leadbeater, whose 
> sixth 
> > > > edition (TPH Adyar, 265 pp.) is dated 1978. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > (2) "Letters From the Masters of the Wisdom", compiled by 
> C. 
> > > > Jinarajadasa, Adyar TPH, first series, Letter number one, 
> known 
> > > > as `the Maha-Chohan Letter' or "the Great Master Letter'. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
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