Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00114)

Friends,

I do not remember HPB "claiming" anything. Or Crosbie.  Or the ULT. 

It was A. Besant who presented herself as an Adept -- HPB rarely or never stated that she was even a "Initiate". 

It was C.W. Leadbeater who claimed he had several initiations, visited Mars and Mercury and talked to "Mr.Christ" nearly every week. And this is in the Adyar literature -- with good sources! 

It was Besant and CWL who claimed Krishnamurti was the new Messiah, etc.


It is the Coulombs who claimed HPB "claimed" this or that.   It is the Coulomb and Soloviof publicizers who 'claim'  that Crosbie 'claimed' this or that. 


Regards,   Carlos. 

 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:03:33 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl (& maybe Carlos) --- R. Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??

> Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.
> 
> Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that she was an 
> agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders, both when 
> she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the E.S.T.S. in 
> 1888. She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it was something 
> else. 
> Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness" and "a Represent" 
> of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self. After his 
> death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was Crosbie, but did 
> he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer is most 
> probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and Theosophy 
> Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his writhing, 
> that we have missed.
> I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one else? Was 
> Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a young child 
> (as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a direct 
> disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have been working 
> together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the official history 
> of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this easier. 
> 
> For some years ago, one group president of the DES told me that they 
> (the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no talk there 
> about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was a "simple 
> Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the case when it 
> was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If we take this 
> by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master S.B. how 
> was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second Section 
> (the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P. Blavatsky was the 
> O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P. Blavatsky, it still 
> doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is a Master, 
> but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the Theosophical 
> world doesn't know anything about. 
> 
> I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there something that 
> not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and Judge's EST, or 
> not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I think, the ULT-
> people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of an Esoteric 
> body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there must be 
> something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I know that 
> P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't seen this, 
> so I don't know that this is about. 
> 
> About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that some leading 
> ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately after hid death 
> took over the body after a young boy in New York City, who just dead 
> in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined the ULT. So 
> maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working together whit? Who 
> knows? 
> 
> I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are saying this, and 
> NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me to repeat 
> this. 
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> wrote:
> >
> > To Carl (& maybe Carlos)--- 
> > Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance Wachtmeister 
> the 
> > following:
> > 
> > "After a long conversation with Master....either I have to return 
> to 
> > India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of true 
> > Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many mystics as I can 
> > get to teach them...."
> > 
> > Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge, HPB wrote:
> > 
> > "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of exclusively occult 
> > students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I am the 
> channel 
> > and which I cannot impart except to pledged members...."
> > 
> > In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888, one finds the 
> > following: 
> > 
> > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom H.P. 
> > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is one of those 
> > Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and concerned in 
> the 
> > formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through H.P. 
> Blavatsky 
> > that each member of this section will be brought more closely than 
> > hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy of it." 
> > Quoted from: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> > 
> > From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric 
> > Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master. And the Master was the 
> REAL 
> > Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of this 
> > Master for the Section.
> > 
> > Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has written about 
> > Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> > 
> > "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity with that of 
> HPB, 
> > was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric School', 
> which 
> > it claimed was the proper title of the Second [Esoteric] Section 
> of 
> > the Theosophical Society."
> > 
> > Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> > 
> > "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by Robert 
> Crosbie 
> > in November 1909...."
> > 
> > Quoted from:
> > "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36730
> > Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> > 
> > Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed CONTINUITY 
> with 
> > the ES of HPB.
> > 
> > Now ponder this:
> > 
> > If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888 UNDER THE 
> > DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION did Robert 
> > Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > 
> > And was there a Master who was actually the real Head of the Dzyan 
> > Esoteric School?
> > 
> > And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master for the 
> > Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece" of a Master 
> for 
> > the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > 
> > These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to ask in light 
> of 
> > what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert Crosbie 
> himself 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE TRUE CHELAS of 
> the 
> > School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those [persons, 
> for 
> > example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost the point of 
> > contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming themselves 
> > Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the other 
> > theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY THEY [ ... 
> THE 
> > TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March 1915. 
> caps 
> > added.
> > 
> > ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric sections OF 
> > THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School of the 
> Masters 
> > or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently universal Wisdom- 
> > Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical Movement 
> are 
> > in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as always. . . ."
> > 
> > "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND AGENTS AMONG 
> > MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have earned the 
> > right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915. caps added.
> > 
> > Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric School, was he 
> > himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent" of the 
> > Masters among men? 
> > 
> > Especially since he had in so many words stated that Mrs. Besant, 
> > Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with the 
> Masters". 
> > 
> > So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> > 
> > Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY magazine proclaimed 
> in 
> > no uncertain terms:
> > 
> > "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second 
> [Esoteric] 
> > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge 
> in 
> > 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that link once 
> > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section 
> was 
> > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists ...."
> > 
> > "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After the death of 
> Mr. 
> > Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken." Theosophy 
> magazine, 
> > August, 1919.
> > 
> > Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and representative of the 
> > Masters when he was still alive. So if indeed Crosbie kept the 
> > [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was Crosbie 
> > really the "one Witness"? And what exactly does that term mean?
> > 
> > one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of the 
> Masters ????
> > 
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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