Theos-Talk Archives (October 2006 Message tt00425)

Dear Rudy,


It seems some people can't see the difference between the ULT and Adyar TS. 


These people think, or pretend to think, that the ULT is a corporation, and that its associates must follow an unified "party line".   Not at all. 

You can talk seriously with people  who do not know something. It is harder to talk to people who do not know -- and do not want to know, but pretend they know-it-all.  

Some people don't even seem to know the difference between an ES and a Masonry!  

One is  but an environment for individual action and inner search; the other a ritualistic show and career-promotion staircase.  Not much in common. 

Someone should tell these people that there is a huge difference between having information and having consciouness, or knowledge.  And let alone having direct experience. 



Regards,   Carlos. 



De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:58:43 -0700

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Some Comments for Carlos on Crosbie and ULT

> I'm going to jump in this discussion between Daniel and Carlos--but, 
> just to give my opinion on the subject of Authority and Theosophy. In 
> my opinion, the student should try to verify everything that he reads 
> or hears from whatever source, in regards to Theosophy, as a 
> doctrine. I know that in order to do that it may be difficult at the 
> beginning, when he is trying to build a foundation of a belief- 
> system, but it should be sincerely done.
> 
> Let's not forget that any Adept verifies everything that another 
> Adept says before He accepts it. It means that that is the way to 
> Self-discovery. Everything has to be internalized and verified.
> 
> Just by reading something, it doesn't mean that it should be accepted 
> as true, and show to others the article, or the book, as an Authority.
> 
> Rodolfo Don
> 
> On Oct 27, 2006, at 9:10 AM, danielhcaldwell wrote:
> 
> > If one can question statements made by Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater,
> > Mrs. Tingley, Mrs. Bailey, etc., then why not Mr. Crosbie also?
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> >
> > Is Carlos suggesting that the independent student, the independent
> > researcher should just accept at face value any and all statements
> > made by Mr. Crosbie or about Mr. Crosbie?
> >
> > Take this statement made in the pages of THEOSOPHY magazine
> > after Crosbie died:
> >
> > ===================================================
> > Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second [Esoteric]
> > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge
> > in 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that link once
> > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was
> > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of
> > Theosophists....There is always one Witness on the scene. After the
> > death of Mr Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken."
> > Theosophy magazine, August, 1919.
> > ======================================================
> >
> > Now is this a FACTUAL statement? Should we just believe it because it
> > is in THEOSOPHY magazine?
> >
> > Did Mr. Crosbie really keep the link unbroken? And how do the
> > writers really know that?
> >
> > Dr. Stokes who was a frank commentator on Theosophicl history had
> > some interesting comments on this statement. I will try to find
> > them and post them later.
> >
> > But exactly what was Mr. Crosbie doing between 1896 when Judge died
> > and for most of the years up to 1907. Well, readers might want to
> > know that Mr. Crosbie was basically defending and promoting Mrs.
> > Tingley and her claims to be the unbroken link after Judge died.
> >
> > Read Mr. Crosbie's OWN words:
> >
> > Robert Crosbie on Katherine Tingley
> > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
> >
> > Here is what Mr. Crosbie said as late as 1902:
> >
> > =====================================================
> > ". . . We who have the privilege of assembling at this place and
> > taking part in this ceremony of sweet and grateful remembrance---
> > know that the establishment of this great Center [by Mrs. Tingley at
> > Point Loma, California] is a realization of what William Q. Judge
> > lived for, worked for, hoped for, and we cannot but feel deep in our
> > hearts that he knows and rejoices with us today.
> >
> > We feel that he knows of the self-sacrificing efforts made by the
> > faithful ones, and that those efforts have been called forth by his
> > chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, "she is true as
> > steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting as time."
> >
> > By her work has she [Mrs. Tingley] shown to all men her fitness to
> > demonstrate the principles laid down by H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q.
> > Judge, by making them practical in the daily life of mankind.
> >
> > Her [Mrs. Tingley's] work and our work stand today as an offering of
> > gratitude and love to that noble soul and loving human heart, whom
> > we knew as W.Q. Judge."
> > ========================================================
> >
> > Notice what Mr. Crosbie said above in 1902 about Mrs. Tingley and
> > Judge:
> >
> > ===================================================
> > We feel that he [Judge] knows of the self-sacrificing efforts made
> > by the faithful ones, and that those efforts have been called forth
> > by his chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, [in
> > his 'occult diary'] "she is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and
> > as lasting as time."
> > =======================================================
> >
> > So did Mr. Crosbie really know what he was talking about when he said
> > this in 1902 or did he know what he was talking about when he totally
> > reversed himself in a document written only 5 years later:
> >
> > =====================================================
> > She [Tingley] tried of course in every way to change my
> > determination, but finding me unchangeable, she let me go, and as I
> > afterwards heard, gave out that she had sent me away for "bad
> > conduct" - just what I do not know. This of course, to "save her own
> > face" as the Chinese say. I am quite will aware of her capacities in
> > the above direction form the history of others who had discovered her
> > real character, and left; there is no slander too low or mean for her
> > to use in such
> > cases to justify herself. Sorry as I am to say it, such is the
> > character of Katherine Tingley, the Leader of the Theosophical
> > Movement Throughout the World, as she styles herself - (there is
> > more of it that is simply too nauseating to write.) It was a hard
> > schooling for me, but it had its good uses and effects. I feel no
> > enmity towards her; I truly pity her and would help her do right any
> > time it might be in my power. I also feel most deeply towards those
> > who are held in mental bondage by her; but nothing can be done -
> > they must open their own eyes, they mare not in a condition to have
> > them opened by anyone else.
> > =====================================================
> >
> > Some serious students of Blavatsky and Tingley have suggested that
> > this shows he became a "victim" of pledge-fever. He took a pledge
> > to Mrs. Tingley in 1897 which reads:
> >
> > ======================================================
> > "I . . . recognizing the person called Purple [Mrs. Tingley] as
> > being the agent of the Master I serve . . . do hereby unreservedly
> > pledge myself, by my Higher Self, to unquestioning loyalty, devotion
> > and obedience to her and to her support and defence as such agent,
> > under any and all circumstances and conditions to the extent of my
> > available means, utmost exertion, and with my life if need be. . . .
> >
> > So Help me my Higher Self.
> >
> > (Signed) Robert Crosbie
> >
> > Witness my hand, this 22d day of May, Eighteen hundred and Ninety-
> > seven."
> > ======================================================
> >
> > Some students say that he "failed" and as a result of that failure,
> > turned against Mrs. Tingley.
> >
> > I am not saying I believe this or for that matter disbelieve it.
> >
> > And I am NOT suggesting that Mr. Crosbie was insincere when he
> > supported Mrs. Tingley or that he was insincere when he rejected her
> > claims. He may have believed whatever he said and when he said it
> > and, of course, persons have the right to change their minds.
> >
> > But if one can question statements made by Mrs. Besant, Mr.
> > Leadbeater, Mrs. Tingley, Mrs. Bailey, etc., then why not Mr. Crosbie
> > also?
> >
> > They may have all been sincere in their pronouncements but all of
> > them or some of them may have been equally wrong and/or deluded.
> >
> > Remember what the Masters said about various individuals and ask if
> > these statements might have some application to some of these later
> > individuals:
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > "[Rai Salig Ram is] — a truly good man — yet a devotee of another
> > error. Not his guru's voice — his own. The voice of a pure,
> > unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed in misguided, misdirected
> > mysticism."
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > "You have scarcely learned the elements of self-control in
> > psychism. . . . Your vivid creative fancy [imagination] evokes
> > illusive Gurus and chelas, and puts into their mouths words coined
> > the instant before in the mint of your mind, unknown to yourself.
> > The false appears as real, as the true, and you have no exact method
> > of detection, since you are yet prone to force your communications
> > to agree with your preconceptions...."
> > -------------------------------
> >
> > ". . . So is Jesus and John the Baptist [clearly visible and
> > audible] to Edward Maitland; [who is] as true and as honest and
> > sincere as S.M. . . . And does not E. Maitland see Hermes the first
> > and second and Elijah, etc."
> >
> > "Finally does not Mrs. [Anna] Kingsford feel as sure as S.M. with
> > regard to ... [Imperator] that she saw and conversed with
> > God!! . . . And who purer or more truthful than that woman or
> > Maitland!"
> >
> > "Mystery, mystery will you exclaim. IGNORANCE we answer; the
> > creation of that we believe in and want to see. . . . "
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Whether these statements might also be applied to some of the later
> > individuals, such as Mrs. Besant or Mr. Leadbeater or Mrs. Tingley
> > or Mr. Crosbie, I would suggest that the thoughtful independent
> > student who wants to think thru the issues for himself (herself) and
> > not just naively accept what any theosophical group might promote,
> > would carefully consider all of this. Whether he can come to any
> > certain decision or not is left for each student to decide.
> >
> > And if the ULT in its archives has relevant documents that will
> > throw additional light on this subject, then I encourage the ULT to
> > release those documents for independent researchers. And I applaud
> > Carlos' call for the Adyar TS to release documents that would
> > throw additional light on the Judge case. Other archives should be
> > encouraged to follow suit by allowing researchers and students to
> > have access to relevant documents on Judge, Tingley and Crosbie.
> >
> > No present day student who believes in the motto: "There is no
> > religion higher than Truth" could possibly object or fear the
> > release of all relevant documents which will allow seekers of truth
> > to understand better what all of these historical events were and
> > what was true or not true.
> >
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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