Theos-Talk Archives (October 2006 Message tt00251)

Friends,

To any ES, the main thing is one's own independent and inner learning.

To any rite or ritualism, the picture is entirely different,  and externalized if not theatrical. 

HPB organized an Esoteric School. She did not organize any physical ritualism.


She had strong reasons for that.


Regards,  Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:43:14 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: E.R. is No E.S.

> Carlos writes:
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> The Egyptian Rite is no Esoteric School and it is far from being 
> equivalent to one.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36458
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> Well, we can quibble about whether the Egyptian Rite is an esoteric 
> school or not, but even Gregory Tillett lists BOTH the Egyptian Rite 
> and the Dzyan Esoteric School under the heading:
> 
> "secret societies"
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359
> 
> And in another posting Tillett writes:
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
> esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
> society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
> open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
> ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Therefore I think it is rather academic thing to decide/quibble 
> whether both ER and DES are esoteric societies/schools or not, and 
> exactly what is meant by "secret society" or "esoteric school".
> 
> Therefore I go back to a more relevant and important question:
> 
> Has the secret DES within the ULT actually been THE REAL CENTER of
> power within that association [ULT]?
> 
> This question is relevant in light of what Tillett has written 
> previously:
> 
> "It cannot seriously be argued that, for example, the ES within the
> Adyar TS has not been THE REAL CENTRE of political power within that
> Society...." caps added
> 
> "....the role of the DES has been EVEN GREATER than that of the
> Adyar and Pt Loma ES groups because it has remained
> largely 'invisible'."caps added
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which secret societies still operate:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36359
> 
> 
> There is considerable debate in academic discussions about 
> esotericism as to what is a secret society and what is an esoteric 
> society! A spectrum can be developed from: existence open/ teachings 
> open (eg the TS) to existence open/ teachings secret (eg the Adyar 
> ES, Co-Masonry) to existence secret/teachings secret (eg ER).
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36381
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > Your points below have already been addressed by me. 
> > 
> > I will try to say that in a fews lines from another angle:
> > 
> > 
> > The Egyptian Rite is no Esoteric School and it is far from being 
> equivalent to one. 
> > 
> > I did not discuss any particular Esoteric School here, as long as I 
> remember, 
> > as I do not feel the Internet is the Forum for that. Therefore my 
> references to the Adyar ES here have been rather marginal. 
> > 
> > I have respect for the Adyar ES.
> > 
> > But the Egyptian Rite is an occult TRAP for souls -- a really 
> secret trap above the Adyar ES and unknown even to most pledged 
> members, even 3rd degree. 
> > 
> > I do not criticize openly that which has even one percent of 
> legitimacy.
> > 
> > But the ER is another thing. 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:05:47 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Jake: Concerning Carlos & the Egyptian Rite & 
> DES
> > 
> > > Jake,
> > > 
> > > Notice Carlos' posting at:
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36361
> > > 
> > > Now Carlos brings up some interesting points in this posting.
> > > 
> > > These are legitimate issues here to be discussed. No doubt. And 
> > > the more that is known about these issues, the better. At least in
> > > my opinion.
> > > 
> > > But if one can ask hard questions about the Egyptian Rite
> > > and its influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, it is not
> > > such a leap to wonder if some of what Carlos says ALSO
> > > applies to other current esoteric/secret groups including the DES.
> > > 
> > > It was Gregory Tillett who posted some years ago on Theos-Talk
> > > the question which reads:
> > > 
> > > What has been the role of the DES (the ULT ES organization) in the
> > > control and/or management of the ULT?
> > > 
> > > If the Eygyptian Rite and the TS Adyar Esoteric Schools have had 
> and 
> > > continue to have influence on the exoteric TS Adyar, then 
> Tillett's 
> > > question is a natural one also to raise.
> > > 
> > > From what Walter Carrithers and others have told me, it is 
> certainly 
> > > a legitimate question.
> > > 
> > > In Carlos' posting given above, he repeatedly writes 
> > > about "misleading secrecy" as concerning the Egyptian Rite. But 
> > > what about "misleading secrecy" as it applies to DES? Does it 
> > > apply? And if so, how? etc. etc.
> > > 
> > > Also notice another point Carlos brings up:
> > > 
> > > "I would not care to talk about that -- except for its dire 
> > > influence on a exoteric Society created by HPB to be an open 
> forum 
> > > of search for Truth. And -- for the fact that its influence 
> reaches 
> > > all of the movement, as there is no such thing as an 'occult 
> > > separation' among theosophical groups...."
> > > 
> > > Well, one might ask if this statement might also apply to the DES?
> > > Especially since Carlos assures us that :
> > > 
> > > "...there is no such thing as an 'occult separation' among 
> > > theosophical groups...."
> > > 
> > > What influence has there been? And could it be dire or otherwise?
> > > 
> > > I hope you and Carlos are not holding the position that it is 
> more 
> > > than okay to discuss and even criticize one esoteric group but 
> not 
> > > another. 
> > > 
> > > I approach all of this as an independent thinker and student. My 
> > > focus has been on Blavatsky --- her writings, the writings of her 
> > > Teachers, the history of her life, that is, material that helps 
> one 
> > > to understand not only the teachings but the life, claims and 
> work 
> > > of HPB. As to any of the claims, teachings and groups existing 
> > > AFTER 1891, I view them all with a healthy dose of 
> > > skepticism...trying to have an open mind but also asking hard 
> > > questions...certainly my association with Walter Carrithers 
> helped 
> > > me to see the need for such an approach.
> > > 
> > > I view all existing theosophical groups with some reservation. 
> > > Certainly each of them have wonderful resources available, such 
> as 
> > > libraries of books, publishing programs. I am convinced that the 
> > > vast majority of people in all these groups are good sincere 
> > > people...seekers of truth. But having said that, I do not mean 
> that 
> > > I accept without question the various claims, etc. that have been 
> > > made since 1891 by the various leaders whether from the three 
> major 
> > > theosophical groups today or other defunct groups such as 
> Hargrove's 
> > > TS, etc. In light of all the conflicting claims and counterclaims 
> > > it is certainly wise to approach all such claims made by whomever 
> > > with healthy skepticism and hard questions.
> > > 
> > > That is my approach. I don't expect anyone else to hold my view. 
> > > People can believe or disbelieve in whatever as they so choose. 
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
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> +_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1161198444.867989.25927.baladonia.hst.terra.com
> .br,6798,Des15,Des15
> > > 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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