Theos-Talk Archives (September 2006 Message tt00519)

Ken,

Sorry, I meant to say " I friendly challenge you with that theme" -- and not " I friendly charge ...." . 

Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:"theos-talk" theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:"carlosaveline" carlosaveline@terra.com.br

Data:Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:15:09 -0300

Assunto:Theos-World Tibet & Discernment

> Dear Ken & Friends, 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> You say:
> 
> "THERE IS REALLY NO SUCH LABEL 'BUDDHIST TIBETAN PHILOSOPHY' .... 
> 
> I say: "Of course not. I did not mean that as a label. I was talking about the substance, not the name".
> 
> 
> It seems we have the same views on these issues, even if each one may use different words and put more or lesse emphasis in this or that aspect of the whole. 
> 
> I will be glad to read more from you on that in some 2 weeks. 
> 
> You also seem to suggest that there was a collective impulse from the 1940s through and 1990s. If you do not suggest that, then I do.
> 
> The history of the effort of the "last quarter of 20th century" is yet to be put in words, probably.
> 
> I friendly charge you with that theme. 
> 
> Best regards, Carlos.
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:11:13 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: Tibet - Discernement etc.
> 
> > Carlos - I made some comments in caps after yours below.
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Ken,
> > 
> > > Speaking of 'Tibetan Buddhism', though, I tend to always look 
> > carefully at "what kind of Tibetan" we are talking about.
> > 
> > WELL, DISCERNING 'WHAT KIND' IS ALWAYS AN IMPORTANT ENDEAVOR, 
> > WHETHER OF BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS, HINDUS OR EVEN THEOSOPHISTS -- 
> > THOUGH I FIND IT IS ALWAYS A CHALLENGE TO MAINTAIN DISCERNMENT 
> > WITHOUT BEING JUDGEMENTAL ! 
> > > 
> > > I believe, Ken, the Tibetan monks you are talking about are OK; 
> > yet one must know that there are "tibetans and tibetans" -- in 
> > these days as in the old days. 
> > 
> > YES...AND IT IS MORE COMPLEX THAN ONE MIGHT THINK EVEN TODAY...
> > > 
> > > One must beware of idealizations. They tend to result in occult 
> > traps. 
> > 
> > PURUCKER ALWAYS WARNED STUDENTS OF 'ENTIFYING ABSTRACTIONS' AND OF 
> > FALLING INTO 'BIBLIOLATRY' OR AS IN THE WELL KNOWN JAPANESE ZEN 
> > IMAGE OF MISTAING THE FINGER POINTING AT THE MOON FOR THE MOON 
> > ITSELF. HAVE NOT THOSE SELF-LABELED 'FUNDAMENTALISTS' FALLEN INTO 
> > THIS EXTERNALIZATION OF MISTAKING THE METAPHOR OR EVEN INTELLECTUAL 
> > ABSTRACTION FOR THE 'THING ITSELF'? SO IN THIS SENSE I WOULD AGREE 
> > IT IS IMPORTANT 'TO BE 'AWARE' OF IDEALIZATIONS' IF I MIGHT CHANGE 
> > YOUR STATEMENT A LITTLE.
> > 
> > 
> > > Several succeeding Dalai Lamas have been most likely assassinated, 
> > one after the other, by high lamas in the highest possible acts of 
> > treason, during their young age, along 19th century, as Geoffrey 
> > Barborka rightly suggests in his excellent book "HPB, Tibet and 
> > Tulku" (I can give the pages). 
> > 
> > 
> > YES IT APPEARS THAT THE FACT THAT NONE OF THE DALAI LAMAS OF THE 
> > 19TH CENTURY - 9-10-11-12 - MADE IT TO AN AGE WHERE THEY WERE 
> > ENTHRONED AND HAD ANY SAY IN AFFAIRS WAS NO ACCIDENT. THE REGENTS 
> > WERE EXTREMELY CORRUPT DURING THIS TIME. ADDITIONALLY THE PANCHEN 
> > LAMA LIVING DURING BLAVATSKY'S TIME DIES SUDDENLY IN 1881 OF SMALL 
> > POX. ZEMEY RINPOCHE IN HIS 'YELLOW BOOK' GIVES RESPONSIBILITY AND 
> > CREDIT TO THE SO CALLED GELUGPA 'PROTECTOR DEITY' SHUGDEN FOR THE 
> > DEMISE OF THIS PANCHEN LAMA (HE WAS TOO NON-SECTARIAN) ! FOR MORE 
> > INFORMATION SEE THE TIBETAN GOVERNMENT WEBPAGE 
> > http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/index.html . THE CURRENT DALAI LAMA 
> > HAS MADE GREAT EFFORT TO DISPEL AND SUBDUE THIS VERY NEGATIVE AND 
> > FANATICAL ELEMENT. FOLLOWERS OF THIS SECT ASSASINATED THE HEAD OF 
> > THE DIALECTICAL SCHOOL, LOBSANG GYATSO, IN DHARAMSALA IN THE LATE 
> > 1990'S. 
> > > 
> > > But the right kind of Buddhist Tibetan Philosophy has a lot in 
> > common with Esoteric Philosophy, no doubt. 
> > 
> > THERE IS REALLY NO SUCH LABEL 'BUDDHIST TIBETAN PHILOSOPHY' - THERE 
> > IS 'VAJRAYANA BUDDHISM' WHICH HISTORICALLY DEVELOPED IN INDIA, BUT 
> > EXTENDED TO INDONESIA AT BORO BODUR AND WHAT IS NOW MYANMAR, SRI 
> > LANKA ETC. THEN IN MORE RECENT TIMES TIBET, MONGOLIA AND CHINA AND 
> > NOW DISPERSED AROUND THE GLOBE. WITHIN VAJRAYANA IS CONTAINED ALL 
> > THE STUDY OF MAHAYANA AND HINAYANA. ETC..............CERTAINLY 
> > THEOSOHISTS SHOULD AT LEAST FOLLOW BLAVATSKY'S LEAD AND STUDY 
> > NAGARJUNA AND TSONG KHAPA AS WELL AS THE CHAN AND ZEN ELEMENTS 
> > IN 'THE VOICE FO THE SILENCE'.
> > 
> > 
> > > I guess Pasadena TS has been rather near to some authentic lines 
> > of Buddhist Thought and this is good for the theosophical movement 
> > as a whole. 
> > 
> > PASADENA TS ? I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY PARTICULAR BUDDHIST LINES OF 
> > THOUGHT THERE. IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE THAT DEPURUCKER AT POINT LOMA IN 
> > HIS 'ESOTERIC TEACHINGS' THOROUGHLY 'MAHAYANIZED' THE ETHICS AND 
> > VIEW IN THESE STUDIES GIVING MUCH EMPHASIS TO THE PARAMITAS, NOBLE 
> > EIGHT FOLD PATH, CONCEPTS OF EMPTINESS ETC. QUOTING EXTENSIVELY FROM 
> > BUDDHIST SUTRAS, DT SUZUKI, PRAJNA PARAMITA LITERATURE AVAIALBE THEN 
> > ETC. ESPECIALLY IN VOL. 1,2 AND 3 ( THESE ARE AVAILABLE FROM POINT 
> > LOMA PUBLICATIONS WWW.WISDOMTRADITIONS.COM )
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > MARK JAQUA IS QUITE CORRECT TO MAKE SOME CLARIFICATION IN THE 
> > HISTORY, BUT NOT MERE EXTERNAL HISTORICAL EVENTS BUT QUALITATIVE 
> > DIFFERENCES IN THOSE [EMMETT/CARMEN SMALL, GORDON PLUMMER, 
> > IVERSON/HELEN HARRIS, ELSIE/HARRY BENJAMIN, DEZIRKOFF, GEOFFREY/ILA 
> > BARBORKA, HELEN TODD, CARDINAL LEGROS, JAN VENEMA, JUDITH TYBERG, 
> > JOHN PRENTICE - TO MENTION THOSE KNOWN THROUGH THEIR WRITINGS AND 
> > THEOSOPHICAL WORK] WHO DID NOT ENSHRINE ANY NEED IN AN 'EXTERNAL 
> > LEADER' IN THE LATE 1940'S. THEIR CREATIVE THEOSOPHIC IMPULSE SPEAKS 
> > FOR ITSELF !
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > And there is no doubt that the yearly sun's cycle is initiatory. 
> > > 
> > > Commentaries on that will be welcome.
> > 
> > I AM WORKING ON THIS AND WILL HAVE SOMETHING IN A COUPLE MORE WEEKS.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
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