Theos-Talk Archives (September 2006 Message tt00120)

Daniel, Friends, 

I agree.

I only think we should try to avoid an overdosis of discussions on fraud. There has been already a (to my view very important) discussion on the 1900 letter. 

And I would say that more important than the immense and numerous technicalities involved in the Letters -- is their contents. 

Flooding this e-group with technicality discussions -- which anyone can do -- will hide much more than show Theosophy.  There should be a balance, therefore, between philosophical issues and technical /specific issues, and meditation issues, and contemplative postings, too. 

Things should be discussed not very far away from a philosophical perspective, and having in the background not only the past but the present and future  of the movement -- and the possibility of employing Theosophy in one's daily life.  

This can be done without limiting liberty of thought. If there is a minimal common ground among people like you yourself, Jake, Gary and others, Theos-talk can have a flexible combination of openness and consistency. 

We should share our readings, and thoughts, and stimulate each other's study and research.  It is not difficult to create such an environment, if we produce a certain minimal amount of calm respect and mutual agreement on the quality of the dialogue. 


I just drop these few lines without time to elaborate further.  


Regards,  Carlos. 




De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:17:00 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Phoney Repetition

> Carlos,
> 
> But unfortunately, little if any discussion has been
> devoted to carefully considering the "reasoning" of those students
> who have declared such letters as "phoney".
> 
> And ignoring these issues (like sweeping them under
> the carpet?) does not help anyone who sincerely wants
> to understand this subject.
> 
> For example, H.P. Blavatsky herself brings up a good number
> of points and issues that (as far as I can tell) no one
> on this discussion group has addressed. Vital points that
> may lead to a greater understanding of the "controversies"
> surrounding these letters.
> 
> See her points at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/35713
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > A fixation about forgeries brings about an endless repetition 
> > of things already discussed. 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Fri, 08 Sep 2006 15:55:25 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Are these Phoney/Imitation Mahatma 
> Letters??
> > 
> > > Are these Phoney/Imitation Mahatma Letters??: 
> > > Summary of the Argument & Issues
> > > 
> > > [This posting only gives the bare bones of what I will try to 
> later
> > > present in greater detail. I give this outline simply to present
> > > a rough overview of the argument, issues and implications 
> > > involved. I'm hoping all contributors to this thread will try to 
> > > grapple with the underlying issue(s) presented and any 
> implications 
> > > that there may be.] 
> > > 
> > > H.P. Blavatsky herself frames the basic argument/issue as 
> follows:
> > > 
> > > ===============================================================
> > > ...We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be 
> free
> > > to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' [Mahatma] 
> letters as 
> > > being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of 
> > > them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others 
> seem 
> > > from their contents and style, to be imitations.
> > > ==============================================================
> > > 
> > > BELOW are FIVE examples of Mahatma Letters considered 
> as "phoney" 
> > > or "imitations" or "dubious" by certain Theosophical students:
> > > 
> > > 1881 Prayag letter (Letter 134 in first 3 eds of 
> > > Mahatma Letters) --- doubted by Henry Olcott
> > > 
> > > 1882 KH Letter on "God" (Letter 10 in first 3 
> > > eds of Mahatma Letters) --- doubted by Hugh Shearman
> > > 
> > > 1888 KH Letter to Henry Olcott (S.S. Shannon 
> > > Letter) --- doubted by A.P. Sinnett
> > > 
> > > 1888-1889 KH Letter on Concentrating on the Master 
> > > as a Living Man within you. --- doubted by Mark Jaqua
> > > 
> > > 1900 KH Letter to Annie Besant --- doubted by Dallas 
> > > TenBroeck, Vernon Harrison and Walter 
> > > A. Carrithers, Jr.
> > > 
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > 
> > > Some general observations:
> > > 
> > > All of the above individuals (Olcott, Shearman, Sinnett, Jaqua, 
> > > TenBroeck, and Carrithers, with the possible exception of 
> Harrison) 
> > > are students of Theosophy. 
> > > 
> > > It would appear that all of the above individuals believe in the 
> > > existence of H.P.B.'s Masters. I am assuming Harrison did, too.
> > > 
> > > It would also appear that they believe that there are genuine 
> > > letters that actually were written by the Mahatmas.
> > > 
> > > But in each of the above 5 examples, the CONTENTION is made that 
> the 
> > > Mahatma letters in question seem "from their contents and style, 
> to 
> > > be imitations."
> > > 
> > > In other words, presumably the argument is made that the REAL 
> Master 
> > > could NOT or would NOT have written said letter(s) or the 
> contents 
> > > of the letters in question. 
> > > 
> > > I assume that at least in some of these instances the 
> Theosophical 
> > > student may be thinking or claiming that someone else (other 
> than 
> > > the real Master) must have written these letters or 
> communications 
> > > and attributed the words/thoughts to the real Mahatmas. 
> > > 
> > > [NOTE: So that there is no confusion in anyone's mind about my 
> > > position, I am of the opinion that the first four letters are 
> > > genuine and are from HPB's teachers. I have some reservations 
> about 
> > > the 1900 Letter to Mrs. Besant but I am inclined to agree with
> > > Carlos Aveline's affirmative estimation of the letter.]
> > > 
> > > I also give BELOW H.P. Blavatsky's extended remarks in reply to 
> her 
> > > unnamed "correspondent" since HPB puts into words quite well 
> many of 
> > > the issues and implications involved. 
> > > 
> > > In Oct. 1888 in the pages of her magazine LUCIFER, Madame 
> Blavatsky 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > ==========================================================
> > > ...We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be 
> free
> > > to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being
> > > forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them 
> bear
> > > the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem from 
> their
> > > contents and style, to be imitations.
> > > 
> > > This is equivalent to saying that he has such an unerring 
> spiritual
> > > insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though 
> he
> > > has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test 
> his
> > > alleged communications. The inevitable consequence of applying 
> his
> > > untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make him as likely 
> as
> > > not to declare false what was genuine, and genuine what was 
> false.
> > > 
> > > Thus what criterion has any one to decide between 
> one "precipitated"
> > > letter, or another such letter?
> > > 
> > > Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as
> > > their amanuenses (the chelas and disciples), can tell? For it is
> > > hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever 
> written by
> > > the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf they 
> are
> > > sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them;
> > > and that when a Master says, "I wrote that letter," it means only
> > > that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his
> > > direct supervision. Generally they make their chela, whether 
> near or
> > > far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his 
> mind
> > > the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the
> > > picture-printing process of precipitation. It depends entirely 
> upon
> > > the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be
> > > transmitted and the writing-model imitated.
> > > 
> > > Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of 
> uncertainty,
> > > whether, if one letter is false, all may not be; for, as far as
> > > intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and are
> > > brought by the same mysterious means.
> > > 
> > > But there is another, and a far worse condition implied. For all
> > > that the recipient of "occult" letters can possibly know, and on 
> the
> > > simple grounds of probability and common honesty, the unseen
> > > correspondent who would tolerate one single fraudulent line in 
> his
> > > name, would wink at an unlimited repetition of the
> > > deception.
> > > 
> > > And this leads directly to the following. All the so-
> > > called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they 
> have
> > > all to stand or fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all
> > > have, and the series of letters in the "Occult World," "Esoteric
> > > Buddhism," etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they
> > > should not be in such a case - frauds, "clever impostures,"
> > > and "forgeries," such as the ingenuous though stupid agent 
> [Richard
> > > Hodgson] of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to 
> raise
> > > in the public estimation the "scientific" acumen and standard of
> > > his "Principals."...
> > > ==============================================================
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> 
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