Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00377)

Dear Cass, 

Using words as Katusha rockets (happily ramdomic and ill-oriented) is an example of the worse than useless character of logic-and-words  without the goal of sincere mutual understanding. 

Rhetoric questions not always help much. 

Everyone knows that  Antahkarana is the metaphoric bridge between higher and lower self. As everyone knows the concept of "heart doctrine" as opposed to the "eye doctrine". Which happens to be the very same and traditional idea of "spirit"  versus "dead letter ". 

These are self-evident ideas to a open mind, aren't they?   

Words are important INSTRUMENTS.  Without good will, they are useless at best. 


Best regards,  Carlos. 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT)

Assunto:Re: Theos-World ON THE VALUE OF WORDS

> My friend, you wrote "I am trying as kindly as I can to avoid engaging in long personal debates with you. Especially on WORDS and SENTENCES." 
> Yet, when I ask you to explain Antakarana, or your heart doctrine, you refer me back to "not engaging in long debates about words and sentences."
> 
> Please let me know how one is to engage in anything without words? Perhaps the answer is to start thumping our chests and stamping our feet!
> 
> Cass 
> 
> Cass Silva wrote: Flapdoodling, tell it to the UN, Carlos.
> Cass
> 
> carlosaveline wrote: Cass,
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> You write: 
> 
> "Your response in regard to Antakarana leaves me asking what you mean by
> an integrity of consistency between feel, think, say, do. Perhaps you can expand on this idea?" (see below)
> 
> I regret to say, Cass, that if such an idea as quoted by you is NOT clear to you as it is, I suspect that no amount of WORDS would help me in the task of letting you know what I mean. 
> 
> If you think it over, you will probably see that MORE WORDS do not always mean MORE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING among people -- and that is precisely the point I am meditating on, through some of my postings here. 
> 
> I am trying as kindly as I can to avoid engaging in long personal debates with you. Especially on WORDS and SENTENCES. 
> 
> Best regards, and in truce, Carlos. 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> Assunto:Re: Theos-World CASS AND THE WORDS
> 
> > Carlos,
> > My intention was not to fragment or unbuild your views. My intention was to seek meaning through the words you penned and respond to your direct question on the subject which you posed at me, "who has said logic and reason etc".
> > 
> > Arne't ideas meant to be challenged if they do not resonate with an individual's point of view? 
> > 
> > Your response in regard to Antakarana leaves me asking what you mean by
> > an integrity of consistency between feel, think, say, do. Perhaps you can expand on this idea?
> > 
> > Can you also expand on Higher Manas being accessible through motive?
> > 
> > If we are to share ideas and our understanding of those ideas, how are we to do this, when your attitude is "There is no need to fragment these ideas above in words or discuss them word by word." Am I to accept carte blanche what you say as the supreme truth which is not to be questioned as it springs from the Voice of the Silence? An unquestioning source? I would suggest that even this must be challenged. Socrates made the mistake of not challenging the source of his daemon.
> > 
> > Your arguments consistently rely on attempting to undermine another's intellectual ability nicely couched in theosophical axioms, which you believe require no explanation but acceptance without question. One of the flaws of academia which you should consider.
> > 
> > To agree to your suggestion would require a discussion with the sphinx.
> > 
> > What if I was to say that my Higher Self was directing me to enlighten you?
> > 
> > Oum mani padma aum
> > Cass
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > carlosaveline wrote: Cass, Friends, 
> > 
> > Thanks. 
> > 
> > Everyone is entitled to fragment my views and then "unbuild" them sentence by sentence, word by word. 
> > 
> > Yet I beg everyone's pardon for not working like that.
> > 
> > The discussion word by word, sentence by sentence, where the meaning of sentences and words are often seen in a very peculiar way by each reader, usualy feed personalistic debates. 
> > 
> > My prefered way of exchanging views is to appeal impersonally and philosophically to the group as a whole, without sticking to discussing this or that phrase.
> > 
> > Things like "I imagine you are referrring to... this or that" -- describe what I mean. 
> > 
> > But I have to accept that my thesis, that "logic without heart is often worse than useless", is difficult to take for some, and hard to grasp as a concept, too. 
> > 
> > This complex idea is related to Antahkarana. 
> > 
> > We should be able to have a line of consistency ( imperfect, partial, but still a line of consistency ) between what we FEEL, and THINK, and SAY, and DO. 
> > 
> > If thoughts, emotions, actions and words are connected by the golden line of integrity (not without imperfections, but still united by this 'vertical' line) -- then in this very same measure the higher self will be present; and Antahkarana will be active, and widened, and operating well. 
> > 
> > Now, as I say that, I am but sharing what I feel. There is no need to 
> > fragment these ideas above in words or discuss them word by word. 
> > 
> > The challenge, for me, is the the ability to hear Voice of the Silence. 
> > 
> > The challenge is to use words and NOT getting too limited by them. 
> > 
> > The blissful opportunity is in using words and in not being used by them. 
> > 
> > One example is the use of the word "truce". It is a metaphor. The same fact could be called in a hundred different ways. 
> > 
> > And every word in esoteric philosophy is but a metaphor. 
> > 
> > It is but a finger pointing to the wonderful full moon light of truth, in the classical Zen image. 
> > 
> > And we will never effectively show light by pointing to fingers, or by critizing each other's fingers. 
> > 
> > "The name of the thing is not the thing" (ancient Indian axiom). 
> > 
> > Best and kind regards, and in truce, 
> > 
> > AUM Shanti, Carlos. 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Wed, 9 Aug 2006 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT)
> > 
> > Assunto:Re: Theos-World UTOPIA & H.P.B.
> > 
> > > Carlos,
> > > You wrote, One of the many conclusions we may get to, from studying once and again these superb lines, is that in Esoteric Science merely logical reasoning at the dualistic level is sometimes worse than useless.
> > > 
> > > Cass: Logical reasoning at the dualistic level is sometimes worse than useless.As stated by me, I believe her lines refer specifically to logical reasoning. 
> > > > 
> > > > Only an expanded consciousness can grasp the esoteric view of life, a view which includes both outer dualism and contrast, and inner unity and harmony. 
> > > 
> > > Cass: Higher Manas sits like the dweller waiting for lower manas to rise not the other way around. My understanding is that an expanded consciousness is no longer in the realms of duality and sees the whole rather than the part. Therefore understanding is spontaneous and non judgemental.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Indeed, it is by acknowledging our own individual co-responsibility for the future of mankind, nay, of all beings, that we get to be able to really learn what is Theosophy about : universal compassion. 
> > > 
> > > Cass: I imagine that you are referring to our thought processess contributing to the mass karma of the planet and in that way we are co-responsible for all wars etc. . However, the masters avoid this co-responsibility by letting the karmic children play out the scenarios they have engendered by their incorrect thinking, usually brought about by misconstrued religious ideals. What about the pacifists who wish nothing more than peace, are they karmically tied to wars and suffering perpetrated by others? Surely universal compassion means an understanding of loving thine enemies, a forgive them for what they no not what they are doing?
> > > > 
> > > > Strangely as it may sound, planetary utopia must begin with everyone of us, and it technically depends on each one’s “Antahkarana”, the bridge between the higher and the lower in individual life.
> > > Cass: All very nice, but idealism at its worse. Antankarana imo is still part of duality. I do not believe that there is a bridge to cross but a cross to bridge.
> > > 
> > > Cass 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > NOTE:
> > > > (1) “The Beacon of the Unknown”, in “Collected Writing of H.P. Blavatsky”, Vol. XI, first edition, 1973, Theosophical Publishing House, India/England, 632 pp., see pp. 282-283. 
> > > > 
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