Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00195)

Pedro, 

Only now I read your message below in a proper way.  Your authoritarism is touching. 

Also remarkable the contrast between your authoritarianism, in questions relating to the movement, and your bright view of things in some general, abstract topics.

No one is perfect.

As to Leadbeater not haveing being expelled, that must a a joke.  Yes -- he was invited to resign, and warned that, he did not, then he would be formally expelled.

Leadbeater was invited back to Adyar TS AFTER Olcott died and BECAUSE Annie Besant, his disciple, had then complete power in their hands. 

You you, Pedro,  trust a son to Leadbeater and his sex lessons? 

Difficult to face the failures of the movement?
 
You can see Radha's posiion is much better than yours. 


Carlos. 



 



Carlos,

I had asked you some serious questions about the current situation 
on theos-talk and your participation in it and you decided to ignore 
them all, telling me instead there is no need for 'nervousness' on 
my part. Besides that, you continued your attacks on the Adyar TS 
and on Leadbeater, which indicates to me that any attempt of 
dialogue with you is not possible.

But for the benefit of readers I will set the record straight on 
something you have repeated here *ad nauseam* and which is simply 
not true:

1. Leadbeater was never expelled from the TS by Olcott. He tendered 
his resignation from the Society to Olcott at the Advisory Board 
meeting, convened by HSO in London on 16 May 1906, to examine the 
charges against L. coming from members of the American Section. At 
that meeting there were fierce exchanges between those who wanted L. 
expelled from the Society (G. R. S. Mead and Bertram Keightley, for 
example) and those who suggested that his resignation be accepted 
(Sinnett). The meeting eventually decided to accept his resignation.

2. Leadbeater was invited back into the TS by a vote of the General 
Council, the governing body of the Society, at its meeting in 
December 1908, which was almost two years after Olcott had passed 
away. Needless to say, that was not without controversy as, for 
example, many well-known members of the English Section resigned 
over that decision.


Pedro 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:58:04 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Reply to Carlos

> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Pedro [Oliveira] ,
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Angela is well and preparing her thesis for a Master's Degree on 
> the Teaching of Inter-Disciplinary Sciences in High Schools -- at 
> the University of Brasília. 
> > 
> > I hear Linda Oliveira is "charismatic" as a speaker, and I hope 
> she is well. 
> > 
> > I do not see the reason for so many personal emotions after I 
> repeated here a few texts which were not written by me, but my K. 
> Paul Johnson, on the mysterious activities of Mr. Daniel Caldwell 
> and his alter egos or hidden personalities, including "David Green" 
> and "Terry". 
> > 
> > I wonder if Bill Meredith will ever tell Theos-talk people who 
> helped K. Paul Johnson in his detailed and successful investigation 
> about the "occult" activities of Daniel Cadlwell. Bill seems 
> interested in clarifying in Theos-talk more aspects of P. Johnson's 
> views about this. 
> > 
> > See, Pedro, I am also a journalist in my basic profession. I 
> believe in the investigation of facts, as you may have noticed. For 
> me, facts come before the writing of the "text", so to say. 
> > 
> > Yet the search for truth is often challenging. We are all 
> familiar with the concepts of Probation and tests. As I believe you 
> are still apriest of the L.C.C., I do not need to tell you where 
> the key notion of Probation can be found in the New Testament. So 
> there is no reason for personal nervousness among people, each time 
> difficult questions are openly faced. 
> > 
> > Agree? Good. 
> > 
> > We are all familiar with the notion of truthfulness. And I can't 
> understand why there should be such a variety of emotional reactions 
> when someone mentions the actual reasons why CWL was expelled -- one 
> hundred years ago in 1906 -- from the Adyar TS. He was expelled by 
> H. S. Olcott with worldwide support. He had to wait for Olcott's 
> death to come back. 
> > 
> > After so many years, what is the problem with acknowledging CWL's 
> many "clairvoyant" fancies? 
> > 
> > Accepting such facts and learning from them, Pedro, is important. 
> Why? Because CWL happens to be the "clairvoyant" who created 
> the "inner" structure of the Adyar Society since 1900, still half-
> operating now, with its various rites and ritualisms. 
> > 
> > Such a power structure is quite different from the "federation of 
> independent thinkers" created, or at least conceived, by HPB, HSO, 
> WQJ, Damodar, S. Row etc. Such a ritualistic and top-down structure 
> may lack occult legitimacy, just as CWL's visits to Mars and Mecury, 
> or CWL's talks to "Lord Christ", or Wedgwood's, Besant's and 
> Arundale's adepthood announcement in the 1920s. 
> > 
> > To those who look at it superficially, it may appear that I am 
> commenting persons -- perhaps "Daniel Caldwell" and "John Algeo", or 
> CWL, Wedgwood and AB. I am not. I am commenting Sophistry. Please 
> go to the "Sophist", by Plato, and to other Dialogues, and you will 
> see what I mean, Pedro. 
> > 
> > (Did you see my recent posting here about the 1966 Conference 
> on "Presentation of Theosophy", in Salzburg? What are your 
> commentaries on the difference of views between Sri Ram and Radha 
> Burnier, on one hand, and the USA/N.Zealand representatives, on the 
> other hand, as to tampering with originals of books? Did you see 
> that Ms.Radha is even today against such a tampering? What is your 
> position? And Linda Oliveira's? ) 
> > 
> > HPB did not write on general and intellectual abstractions only. 
> > 
> > Look at the "Collected Writings". Look at the Mahatma Letters. 
> There are lots of precious teachings and living examples on the need 
> for a frank truthfulness in the movement. 
> > 
> > Having an Ascendant in Cancer, if I remember it well, you are now 
> in a nice and promising phase of your Saturn cycle. Now you can face 
> truth without a feeling of emotional shock and horror. I hope, 
> then, you can understand some of my views. 
> > 
> > Yesterday, Tuesday, I took a look at the Theos-talk messages in 
> previous years. I saw a message by Dr. Gregory Tillett in which he 
> demonstrates various facts about C. W. Leadbeater. Tillett informs 
> that those actions, if made today, would send Leadbeater to jail. 
> > 
> > I intend to bring this message by Tillett here today for you to 
> comment, Pedro. I consider you a decent man and I make my own 
> appeal to you. Will you accept a dialogue on the historical mistakes 
> which now allow for such a thing to happen, as slandering HPB inside 
> the Adyar TS and in the name of TPH?
> > 
> > As you know, past mistakes can haunt "present times" -- as long as 
> one refuses to learn lessons from them. 
> > 
> > You see, after Tillett's message on the possibly criminal actions 
> by Leadbeater, another Theos-talk friend -- Anand, I guess -- , 
> obviously a Leadbeaterian, just answered: 
> > 
> > "I am not interested in this subject". 
> > 
> > And went silent. It is a sad experience, to see Theosophists 
> turning their faces away from Ethical questions, as if Theosophy 
> were but a collection of WORDS with no connection to ACTIONS. 
> > 
> > Or take the example of the emotional complications in the life of 
> Jiddu Krishnamurti, carefully silenced by many Adyar people as long 
> as they can. 
> > 
> > So, if you ask Adyar people about CWL mistakes, or crimes perhaps; 
> and about Krishnamurti failings, they will avoid the subject 
> altogether; and sometimes they will talk about "character 
> assassination", etc., although these are undeniable FACTS. 
> > 
> > And if you ask them about the "veracity" of the slanders some of 
> them help circulate against HPB, they will avoid the subject, too --
> although these are undeniable FALSEHOODS. 
> > 
> > It will be a privilege to go on with this dialogue. I know you 
> have both the intellectual courage and the theosophical experience 
> needed for that. 
> > 
> > I do hope you see this is not about CWL, or HPB. It is about 
> veracity, sincerity. It is about Theosophy versus Sophistry. CWL, 
> A.B. and HPB are but metaphors or examples for rates of vibration. 
> > 
> > WISDOM cannot be separated from ETHICS. This is, at least, my 
> view. 
> > 
> > Away from Ethics, one can only get Sophistry, or perhaps 
> Theosophistry. 
> > 
> > If you are available for the dialogue, it will be my pleasure. 
> > 
> > If you are not, I send you my greetings anyway, and my thanks. 
> > 
> > We may have some different views about spirituality, but I see 
> your good intention, which has a value in itself. 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlos,
> 
> I had asked you some serious questions about the current situation 
> on theos-talk and your participation in it and you decided to ignore 
> them all, telling me instead there is no need for 'nervousness' on 
> my part. Besides that, you continued your attacks on the Adyar TS 
> and on Leadbeater, which indicates to me that any attempt of 
> dialogue with you is not possible.
> 
> But for the benefit of readers I will set the record straight on 
> something you have repeated here *ad nauseam* and which is simply 
> not true:
> 
> 1. Leadbeater was never expelled from the TS by Olcott. He tendered 
> his resignation from the Society to Olcott at the Advisory Board 
> meeting, convened by HSO in London on 16 May 1906, to examine the 
> charges against L. coming from members of the American Section. At 
> that meeting there were fierce exchanges between those who wanted L. 
> expelled from the Society (G. R. S. Mead and Bertram Keightley, for 
> example) and those who suggested that his resignation be accepted 
> (Sinnett). The meeting eventually decided to accept his resignation.
> 
> 2. Leadbeater was invited back into the TS by a vote of the General 
> Council, the governing body of the Society, at its meeting in 
> December 1908, which was almost two years after Olcott had passed 
> away. Needless to say, that was not without controversy as, for 
> example, many well-known members of the English Section resigned 
> over that decision.
> 
> 
> Pedro 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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