Theos-Talk Archives (August 2006 Message tt00179)

Pedro,

A brilliant posting, and an important work being done!

Very good to know about it --  congratulatons,  Carlos. 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:46:41 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Fundamentalism, religion and reason

> Dear Perry,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I recently went on a lecture tour through 
> Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. As you know, both Malaysia and 
> Indonesia are Muslim countries and one should be careful about 
> words, not only to avoid offending sensibilities but also to stay 
> alive!
> 
> In Bandung, Indonesia, I was invited to give a lecture at a Catholic 
> University in which the majority of the audience consisted of 
> Muslims. The subject of my lecture was "The Perennial Philosophy and 
> its Application in Daily Life", and it was based, in part, on the 
> Three Fundamental Propositions of The Secret Doctrine. After the 
> talk, my translator, a very dedicated theosophist who is also vice-
> president of the Indo-Pacific Federation of the TS (Adyar), told me 
> he was uncomfortable with me mentioning the Third Fundamental 
> Proposition, and specifically commenting on the identity of every 
> human Soul with the Universal Over-Soul. He told this teaching is 
> frowned upon in Islam as God is ever transcendent and that I should 
> consider myself fortunate that nobody in the audience objected to 
> it. Just to give you an idea of the risk involved, many centuries 
> ago a Sufi teacher, Mansur Al-Hallaj, was beheaded for affirming 
> publically his union with God! Such are the risks of trying to 
> disseminate Theosophy today.
> 
> A very interesting experience awaited me in Jakarta, the last leg 
> (or neck, if you prefer!) of my tour. A commemorative meeting of the 
> anniversary of the Indonesian TS (due to legal reasons they call 
> themselves 'Federation of Indonesian Theosophists', as earlier 
> governments, after the Independence from Holland, banned any 
> association with foreign organisations) was organised and the former 
> General Secretary, who is a Muslim, gave us a talk about the history 
> of the TS in that country. I felt deeply moved by it. For example, 
> during the Japanese occupation of Indonesia, in World War II, 
> Indonesian theosophists kept the Society alive by holding meetings 
> undergound, at the risk of their own lives.
> 
> After the talk, I asked the old gentleman for his opinion about the 
> difficulty in conveying to audiences in that country, the 
> fundamental identity between the human Soul and the Universal Over-
> Soul. He said that for him that was not a problem as he understood 
> God to be the unity of all existence. He is 84 and still holding 
> study meetings in his house.
> 
> Sorry for my rambling. What I really wanted to say is that the 
> mystical heart of religion, I feel, is still alive, whether it is in 
> Judaism, Christianity or Islam. I felt it in Indonesia very strongly 
> and it expressed itself in the attitude of kindness of the many 
> people I met. And perhaps kindness (or compassion) is the soul of 
> religion. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pedro
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" wrote:
> >
> > Dear Cass and Pedro,
> > Very thought provoking ! 
> > 
> > I think its important to remember that religion plays a very 
> > important part in many peoples lives and so the need is to try and 
> > integrate a more tolerant and inclusive dialogue between the 
> > different religions.
> > 
> > Perhaps the integration of a more symbolic and mystical approach 
> is a 
> > possible answer away from literalist and dead letter 
> interpretations.
> > 
> > Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have strong mystical and 
> symbolic 
> > traditions within them and this approach would also allow an 
> opening 
> > for tolerance not only inter-religiously but scientifically and 
> > philosophically.
> > 
> > The more humanity can grasp that spirituality does not require 
> below 
> > to a religion but is more about compassionate action and 
> > understanding the quicker humanities spiritual evolution can move 
> > forward.
> > 
> > The trouble comes when `salvation' is seen as belonging only to 
> only 
> > certain people who belong to a particular sect or way of believing.
> > 
> > However another thing to consider I do think is that many of the 
> > world's problems while they maybe dressed up in religious garb are 
> > really underneath prompted and used by geopolitical power plays.
> > 
> > Power vested interests have a lot to gain by keeping people 
> ignorant.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "pedro oliveira" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Cass and Perry,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your views. I prefer to take a cautious approach 
> to 
> > > the issue of fundamentalism because I am convinced that it is 
> not 
> > > possible to understand it as if it were a black or white 
> reality. 
> > > The interview I mentioned in my earlier posting, with Professor 
> > > Seyyed Hossein Nasr, made me think afresh about the problem. 
> > > 
> > > The issue of power in this question, mentioned by Perry, is 
> quite 
> > > evident. But then power-seeking placates every human 
> organisation 
> > on 
> > > this earth and is not limited to religion. The dualism in 
> religious 
> > > structures/theologies, mentioned by Cass, is also evident, but I 
> > > would faintheartedly suggest that not even science is free from 
> it, 
> > > and even in the broad daylight of the 21st century it still sees 
> > > consciousness not as a primary reality but as an epiphenomenon 
> of 
> > > the brain chemistry!
> > > 
> > > The Theosophical Movement is also not without its contradictions 
> in 
> > > its attitude to religion. We have the forceful (and convincing) 
> > > denunciation of religion as being responsible for two thirds of 
> > > human misery (Mahatma Letters) and yet the Founders established 
> a 
> > > Society to study Comparative Religion! See, for example, the 
> > > following letter:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > GREETINGS to the Hindu, Parsee, Buddhist, English and other 
> > > Delegates and to the Fellows herewith present.
> > > Remember that though of various nationalities and religions you 
> are 
> > > nearly all the children of one mother, India. Remember and act 
> > > accordingly. You have to make of the Anniversary ceremony 
> > > celebration a grand success. You have to prove to your evil-
> wishers 
> > > and enemies that your cause, being strong and having taken its 
> > stand 
> > > upon the rock of truth, indeed can never be impeded in its 
> progress 
> > > by any opposition, however powerful, if you be all united and 
> act 
> > in 
> > > concert. Be true, be loyal to your pledges, to your sacred duty, 
> to 
> > > your country, to your own conscience. Be tolerant to others, 
> > respect 
> > > the religious views of others if you would have your own 
> respected. 
> > > Sons of India, of old Aryavarta, whether adopted or sons of her 
> > > blood, remember that you are theosophists and that Theosophy or 
> > > Brahma Vidya is the mother of every old religion, forsaken and 
> > > repudiated though she may now be by most of her ungrateful 
> > children. 
> > > Remember this, act accordingly and the rest will follow in due 
> > > course.
> > > With our sincere blessings,
> > > 
> > > K.H.
> > > 
> > > (Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, First Series, letter 2)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Did the Mahatmas give so much importance to religious 
> understanding 
> > > because they somehow knew religion would be an explosive 
> influence 
> > > in the twentieth century, when destituted of spiritual insight 
> or 
> > > mysticism? I confess I don't know. But what seems clear to me 
> now 
> > is 
> > > that fundamentalism is not an isolated phenomenon, but an 
> integral 
> > > part of the cultural wars that started with the dawning of the 
> > > modern age in the 17th century, with Cartesian and thought-
> centred 
> > > world views dominating the world. Interestingly enough, this is 
> > also 
> > > the period of dramatic expansion of colonialist rules around the 
> > > globe. 
> > > 
> > > Pedro
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My thinking is that all religions are steeped in good/evil, 
> > > reward/punishment axioms coming from a personal god, who for the 
> > > most part does our thinking for us. The rationale behind this 
> is 
> > > that we are no longer responsible for our actions but are 
> > messengers 
> > > or defenders of the faith.
> > > > 
> > > > The skepticism of science is refreshing and provides a balance 
> > > against this ancient thinking. I would prefer to deal with a 
> > > skeptical scientist that a bible/koran punching believer. 
> Imagine 
> > > trying to explain to a Muslim or a Christian that we are part of 
> a 
> > > quantum universe and that within that universe there are 
> multiple 
> > > choices that can be made. Imagine telling them that we create 
> our 
> > > own reality and impact on this reality with our thoughts and 
> > > emotions and that at no point is there the notion that whatever 
> > > choice we make will result in a reward or a punishment. The 
> result 
> > > of my choices, which will either quicken or slower my 
> evolution. 
> > > IMO, it's as simple as that.
> > > > 
> > > > One of the Masters stated that when mankind is too far in 
> error 
> > > nature will intervene. I can see this happening in the world 
> right 
> > > now. It was predicted when the door closed on this evolution. 
> > > Those that slipped through at the last moment had the 
> opportunity 
> > to 
> > > re-think their existence. If some of the sub-races disappear, I 
> > > imagine it is in the normal course of events, as the foundation 
> of 
> > > the sixth root race must take precedence over fourth and fith 
> root 
> > > races.
> > > > 
> > > > What is happening in the Middle East is very sad, but 
> > > understandable, if we are going to accept the teachings of the 
> > > ancient wisdom.
> > > > 
> > > > Cass
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > plcoles1 wrote: 
> > > Hello Pedro,
> > > > I hope you are doing well.
> > > > Thanks for your comments, I just thought I'd put forward a 
> few 
> > > thoughts.
> > > > For me I think that the problem with the clash between 
> religious 
> > > fundamentalism and 
> > > > reason really boils down to an issue of power.
> > > > 
> > > > I have just finished watching an excellent series 
> > > called "Christianity the first 2000 years" 
> > > > watching that series it really became clear how much of an 
> > > ongoing paradox religion can 
> > > > be.
> > > > Religion has been used as a means to control nations and 
> people 
> > > in order to maintain 
> > > > status quo, any descent to the dogma of the religious 
> > > establishment then becomes a 
> > > > threat to that `order'.
> > > > 
> > > > Science and philosophy had to assert themselves in order to 
> be 
> > > able to evolve and 
> > > > maintain integrity.
> > > > As seems to happen, things move from one extreme to the other 
> > and 
> > > so it's a constant 
> > > > balancing act.
> > > > The idea to form a society to comparatively study religion 
> > > philosophy and science was a 
> > > > brilliant idea.
> > > > Its interesting that the title page of `Key to Theosophy' 
> reads :
> > > > 
> > > > "Being a Clear Exposition, in the Form of Question and 
> Answer, 
> > of 
> > > the ETHICS, SCIENCE, 
> > > > AND PHILOSOPHY for the Study of which The Theosophical 
> Society 
> > > has been Founded."
> > > > Interesting that ethics is included here as well.
> > > > 
> > > > Another statement in the Mahatma letters worth noting is 
> where 
> > > the Mahatma say's 
> > > > `science is our best ally', it's an interesting statement to 
> > > ponder upon why that may be the 
> > > > case?
> > > > 
> > > > Science without ethics is dangerous just as religion with 
> reason 
> > > is also dangerous and so a 
> > > > synthesis of some kind is needed in order to try and develop 
> a 
> > > healthy balance. 
> > > > 
> > > > Much emotional attachment can be caught up in some belief 
> > systems 
> > > as well as fear based 
> > > > mindsets which seem to maintain a very strong hold in the 
> > > skandhas, thus they pass on to 
> > > > the new personality perhaps for many lifetimes to come.
> > > > 
> > > > I think the purpose of the TS was to try and get people re-
> > > examining their beliefs and 
> > > > attitudes in order help humanity move forward into a deeper 
> and 
> > > profounder 
> > > > understanding of themselves and the cosmos by refining the 
> > > intellectual faculties by 
> > > > tempered with compassion and tolerance.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > 
> > > > Perry
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it 
> free. 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> 
> 
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