Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00618)

Friends,

An important issue, no doubt, that of Theosophy X Sex.  

Dallas writes: 

"Will this week's study probably revolve around KAMA-MANAS and cover the
subject: Is LUST PERMISSIBLE AND EXCUSABLE ? If this is to be discussed among students of THEOSOPHY I say IT IS SHAMEFUL."

I tend to agree with Dallas.  I also would like to add that intense lust  is oten connected to the opposite-side stimulation of kundalini. 

When many common individuals go for this, in any given civilization, the civilization usually condemns itself to go to History's waste basket. Kundalini is no plaything.

The stimulation and liberation of blind kama-manasic impulses (i. e. baseness and selfishness) may be directly connected to the end, or to the crisis, of civilizations. This is only a hypothesis that I would like pose here.

True, Raja Yoga's view of life is not for all, nor Karma or Jnana Yogas. Yet decency, honesty  and moderation, these three, yes they  are  for all people of goodwill around the world.  And this  is a key thing to acknowledge in the decisive moments we now live. 

>From the viewpoint of HPB and the Mahatmas' teachings, merely nominal Theosophy (divorced from ETHICS)  has much more in common with Sophistry than with Philosophy. 

I respect those who think differently. I would say, though, that not mixing Lust with Occultism is better than combining both.  

As I said earlier, there is no Victorianism in this, as  Raja and Jnana Yoga were created much earlier than the British Empire. 

The Middle Way includes Moderation in all things. 

Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:"theos-talk" theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:38:10 -0300

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World "Tantra", Theosophy & Victorian Times

> Friends,
> 
> An imortant issue, no doubt. 
> 
> I mean no disrespect whatsoever for those who may think diametrically different from me. 
> 
> Dallas writes: 
> 
> "Will this week's study probably revolve around KAMA-MANAS and cover the
> subject: Is LUST PERMISSIBLE AND EXCUSABLE ? If this is to be discussed among students of THEOSOPHY I say IT IS SHAMEFUL."
> 
> I would add that intense lust ("mystical" or otehrwise) is connected to the opposite-side stimulation of kundalini. 
> 
> When many common individuals go for this, in any given civilization, the civilization condemns itself to go to History's waste basket. 
> 
> The stimulation and liberation of blind kama-manasic impulses (baseness and selfishness) may be connected to the end, or crisis, of civilizations. This is only a hypothesis that I would like to fraternally pose here.
> 
> True, Raja Yoga's view of life is not for all, nor Karma or Jnana Yogas. Not to mention Theosophy. 
> 
> From the viewpoint of HPB and the Mahatmas' teachings, nominal Theosophy has more in common with Sophistry than with Philosophy, I guess. Yet these are the times in with we are living, and have to say I respect those who think differently. 
> 
> I would risk saying, though, that not mixing Lust with Occultism is better ( or "less worse" ) than combining both in a "modern" confusion. 
> 
> As I said earlier, there is no Victorianism in this Raja and Jnana Yoga were created much earlier than the British Empire. 
> 
> Respetfully yours, Carlos Cardoso Aveline 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Sat, 29 Jul 2006 06:52:42 -0700
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World RE: Tantra & Theosophy Virtual Lodge
> 
> > 
> > 7/29/2006 6:31 AM
> > 
> > RE: Tantra & Theosophy Virtual Lodge
> > 
> > Friends:
> > 
> > Will this weeks study probably revolve around KAMA-MANAS and cover the
> > subject: Is LUST PERMISSIBLE AND EXCUSABLE ?
> > 
> > If this is to be discussed among students of THEOSOPHY I say IT IS
> > SHAMEFUL.
> > 
> > I ask plainly: Sexual promiscuity -- is this to be associated with our
> > mothers, wives, girl and boy children? Is this discussed in the average
> > home, not to mention Theosophical ones ?
> > 
> > Does the BUDDHI-MANAS have anything to do with this, or its vile symbology
> > that mocks the divine and PURE union of ATMA-BUDDHI ?
> > 
> > 
> > Let me quote again a portion from a just published story: 
> > 
> > A BEWITCHED LIFE
> > As Narrated by a Quill Pen By H. P. Blavatsky 
> > 
> > 
> > "One night I was abruptly awakened by a long and loud cry of distress. It
> > was a woman's voice, plaintive like that of a child, full of terror and of
> > helpless despair. I awoke with a start to find myself on land, in a strange
> > room. 
> > 
> > A young girl, almost a child, was desperately struggling against a powerful
> > middle-aged man, who had surprised her in her own room, and during her
> > sleep. Behind the closed and locked door, I saw listening an old woman,
> > whose face, notwithstanding the fiendish expression upon it, seemed familiar
> > to me, and I immediately recognized it: it was the face of the ***** who had
> > adopted my niece in the dream I had at Kioto. She had received gold to pay
> > for her share in the foul crime, and was now keeping her part of the
> > covenant . . . . But who was the victim? O horror unutterable! Unspeakable
> > horror! When I realized the situation after coming back to my normal state,
> > I found it was my own child-niece. 
> > 
> > But, as in my first vision, I felt in me nothing of the nature of that
> > despair born of affection that fills one's heart, at the sight of a wrong
> > done to, or a misfortune befalling, those one loves; nothing but a manly
> > indignation in the presence of suffering inflicted upon the weak and the
> > helpless. I rushed, of course, to her rescue, and seized the wanton, brutal
> > beast by the neck. I fastened upon him with powerful grasp, but, the man
> > heeded it not, he seemed not even to feel my hand. 
> > 
> > The coward, seeing himself resisted by the girl, lifted his powerful arm and
> > the thick fist, coming down like a heavy hammer upon the sunny locks, felled
> > the child to the ground. It was with a loud cry of the indignation of a
> > stranger, not with that of a tigress defending her cub, that I sprang upon
> > the lewd beast and sought to throttle him. I then remarked, for the first
> > time, that, a shadow myself, I was grasping but another shadow! . . . . 
> > 
> > My loud shrieks and imprecations had awakened the whole steamer. They were
> > attributed to a nightmare. I did not seek to take anyone into my confidence;
> > but, from that day forward, my life became a long series of mental tortures,
> > I could hardly shut my eyes without becoming witness of some horrible deed,
> > some scene of misery, death or crime, whether past, present or even future
> > -- as I ascertained later on. 
> > 
> > It was as though some mocking fiend had taken upon himself the task of
> > making me go through the vision of everything that was bestial, malignant
> > and hopeless, in this world of misery. No radiant vision of beauty or virtue
> > ever lit with the faintest ray these pictures of awe and wretchedness that I
> > seemed doomed to witness. 
> > 
> > Scenes of wickedness, of murder, of treachery and of lust fell dismally upon
> > my sight, and I was brought face to face with the vilest results of man's
> > passions, the most terrible outcome of his material earthly cravings. " 
> > 
> > A BEWITCHED LIFE -- As Narrated by a Quill Pen
> > By H. P. Blavatsky 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------
> > 
> > What do we know of “Tantra ?” Only the exoteric, gross and disgusting rind.
> > What lies underneath ? Has THEOSOPHY anything at all to do with this kind
> > of reality?
> > 
> > 
> > I think some hints will be found herein.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > UNIVERSAL MIND AND INITIATION
> > 
> > 
> > "The action of the entire universe is but a detailed manifestation and
> > example of the action of mind on matter, governed at the highest point by
> > the action of the universal Mind. Between the finite human mind of the
> > ordinary uninitiated individual and this universal mind lie an infinite
> > number of gradually ascending degrees, and the higher the plane of
> > consciousness the nearer is the approach to the universal mind which is, as
> > it were, the main-spring of the whole. Although there are no hard and fast
> > lines in nature yet these various grades may be marked off into great main
> > divisions; and it is the successive attainment of these, one after the
> > other that is represented by the degrees of initiation. When one plane of
> > existence has been exhausted, there is needed, as it were, a fresh impulse
> > to enable us to go on higher and this it is that is supplied at the time of
> > initiation." "Alpha" THEOSOPHIST, June 1886 - [ ULT- T A & N p. 61
> > ]
> > 
> > 
> > [ COMMENT: Krishna is the ancient name given to that living and undying
> > Spirit (enveloped by matter) which supports and guides evolution, which
> > preserves the creative life-giving force that unites all beings. "He" lives
> > in the hearts of all, and therefore is closest to the true center of every
> > man. He resides in our own heart. He is not "outside," nor is He a remote
> > "Deity," that is abstract and to be worshiped in some man-made temple. He
> > is our very own Higher Self, the "Secret Self," which is for the Universe
> > its universal SELF, as it is more intimately, "the Self of all creatures." 
> > 
> > 
> > GAYATRI
> > GOLDEN VASE 
> > 
> > The Sun of our system, whose glory it is impossible to "see," represents
> > Krishna. It is hidden by a "vase of golden light". Curiously, the meaning
> > of the Sanskrit name "Krishna" is: the "dark one," or, occultly: "he who
> > stands as interpreter of the brilliance of the 'Central Spiritual SUN,'
> > shielding 'creatures in their infancy' from its destructive light, while
> > preserving the living field in which all beings may evolve." He is Pushan,
> > who is holder of the "vase of golden light" which shields earthly man, us
> > from the "Sun" of the ONE SPIRIT until such time as we learn to become one
> > with Him and able to remove the "vase" without destroying ourselves (for in
> > that process we will have created an indestructible form for our use). This
> > is one of the interpretations of the Gayatri verse, used every morning by
> > the Brahmins to recall to memory the source and purpose of life.
> > 
> > Krishna and Vishnu (the force of preservation, of continuity--of
> > reincarnation and karma) are one, and in turn, Vishnu is an aspect of the
> > triple World of Energy called symbolically: Brahma-Vishnu-Siva, or the
> > conjoined and eternal powers of creation, preservation and regeneration,
> > [after a grand cycle of general dispersal (destruction) not annihilation, it
> > is the Eternal "Vishnu" who places the seed for the fresh evolutionary
> > "day," called "creation," in the womb of 
> > Brahma ]. 
> > 
> > When the cycle of living closes, he, as Siva dances into pralaya or "rest"
> > the energies and forces of all the beings involved in evolution (symbolized
> > by the "cremation ground") so that they may reappear when the Maha-Yogi
> > (great Initiator) regenerates them, dancing them back into the new "day" for
> > their resumption of karmic evolution; and a fresh Manvantara begins. So we
> > have an example of the depiction of rhythm, of time cycles and of on-going
> > purposiveness in living for all beings without any exceptions.
> > 
> > This is one of the explanations which the Tantras are seen to offer, in
> > their purest condition. But they have been degraded and materialized by the
> > ignorant who made themselves devotees of only the destructive, or rather the
> > dispersive forces operating in Nature. They fear this force, and seek to
> > propitiate it by making themselves, they fancy, into its physical agents --
> > a terrible error, as It does not need anyone to carry on its appointed work.
> > But the priests, who feed on the ignorance of the masses, teach inverted
> > truths. - Ed.
> > 
> > 
> > "We are held and described by some persons as no better than refined or
> > "cultured tantrikas?" Well, we ought to feel gratified for the prefixed
> > adjective, since it would have been as easy for our would-be biographers to
> > call us unrefined tantrikas. Moreover, the easy way with which you notify
> > us of the comparison made, makes me confident of the fact that you know
> > little if anything about the professors of that sect; otherwise you would
> > have hardly, as a gentleman, given room to such a simile in your letters.
> > One more word will suffice. The "tantrikas"--at least the modern sect, for
> > over 400 years--observe rites and ceremonies, the fitting description of
> > which will never be attempted by the pen of one of our Brotherhood."
> > 1st Series, Letters From The Masters of Wisdom, p. 80
> > 
> > 
> > TANTRAS
> > 
> > 
> > [HPB explains the secret Kabalistic teachings concerning the expiations and
> > final sacrifice of the Initiator when the last initiation of the candidate
> > occurs. "Decapitation," 3 streams of blood: to "personality that is," to
> > "Heaven" from which SPIRIT, and to Earth or Matter -- to purify it with the
> > sacred blood of self-sacrifice.
> > 
> > How the Tantrikas of the Chhinamasta sect have materialized this and made a
> > degraded rite of the symbolic sacrifice -- "a profound occult truth which is
> > known only to the initiated." THEOSOPHIST, Vol 4, p. 38fn.]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [ "T.S." contributes an article on the Tantras. An editorial (HPB ?)
> > footnote reads: "For reasons of their own...the Brahmos...regard all the
> > Tantras as the most abominable works on sorcery that inculcate immorality.
> > Some of the Tantric works and commentaries are certainly prohibited on
> > account of their dealing with necromancy (modern Spiritualism). But the
> > meaning in the real old Tantras remaining a dead letter to the uninitiated
> > Hindus, very few can appreciate their worth. Some of the "White" Tantras,
> > especially the one treated upon in the present article, contain extremely
> > important information for the Occultist.--Ed. ]
> > 
> > 
> > "There are 3 kinds of Tantras (see above). Ordinarily a Tantrica means a
> > Sakta...
> > 
> > The "Maha Nirvana Tantra" is the earliest...most important of all. 
> > 
> > All Tantric works are supposed to be the record of conversations held
> > between Shiva and his consort Parvati. The word "Shiva" literally signifies
> > "Peace," and Parvati..."Yoga"." 
> > 
> > [ In the Tantras, 
> > 
> > Parabrahm always is spoken of as the indescribable Absolute One; while
> > Mahadeva (Shiva) and Parvati (Sakti) represent the "travelers" bound for
> > that goal; Shiva being the Purusha (Spirit and Man-male) and Parvati being
> > the Prakriti (Woman-female or Universal Nature). 
> > 
> > Yoga-Maya, is the illusion, that which connects Spirit with matter. 
> > 
> > The rest of the article describes the condition of polarity (male-female) in
> > a uniform field where individual evolutionary progress depends on
> > self-effort, cooperation, tolerance and compassion.] 
> > 
> > "The Tantric works deal...in addition...with what is called "Mantra Yoga." [
> > Divided into 6 branches.] ...With the exception of the last, the first 5 are
> > what is known as black magic, and...are prohibited [by Manu]...being classed
> > with "capital sins." [ Follows a description of the several degrees of
> > devotees and their austerities, studies and permitted food and drink -- no
> > alcohol or spirits. ] THEOSOPHIST Vol. 4, p. 226
> > 
> > 
> > [Description of the Siddha Tantras is given here. Intellect and will powers
> > considered active in the 14 Lokas of existence in the Universe. Power of
> > imagination considered.]
> > THEOSOPHIST SUPPLEMENT, Oct. 1883, p. 14.
> > 
> > 
> > [Description of the Tibetan Tantras -- called "Buddhist" -- Rise of the
> > Dugpa sect in Sikkhim and Bhutan, even their original texts, rites and works
> > have further degenerated. The purest approach to Vedanta. Still further
> > degradation by ritualism and selfish goals has attracted the sellers of
> > spirits, etc... Altogether objectionable and abominable.] 
> > "T.S." THEOSOPHIST Vol. 5, p. 96-7.
> > 
> > 
> > [ END of quotes from THEOSOPHIST. ]
> > 
> > 
> > ===============================================================
> > 
> > 
> > I N I T I A T I O N
> > 
> > 
> > "To crucify before (not against) the sun" is a phrase used of initiation.
> > It comes from Egypt, and primarily from India. The enigma can be unriddled
> > only by searching for its key in the Mysteries of Initiation. The initiated
> > adept, who had successfully passed through all the trials, was attached. not
> > nailed, but simply tied on a couch in the form of a tau T (in Egypt) of a
> > Svastika without the four additional prolongations (thus: [a cross], not
> > [svastika shape] plunged in a deep sleep (the "Sleep of Siloam" it is called
> > to this day among the initiates in Asia Minor, in Syria and even higher
> > Egypt). He was allowed to remain in this state for three days and three
> > nights, during which time his Spiritual Ego was said to confabulate with the
> > "gods," descend into Hades, Amenti or Patala (according to the country), and
> > do works of charity to the invisible beings, whether souls of men or
> > Elemental Spirits; his body remaining all the time in a temple crypt or
> > subterranean cave. In Egypt it was placed in the Sarcophagus in the King's
> > Chamber of the Pyramid of Cheops and carried during the night of the
> > approaching third day to the entrance of the gallery. where at a certain
> > hour the beams of the rising Sun struck full on the face of the entranced
> > candidate, who awoke to be initiated by Osiris, and Thoth the God of
> > Wisdom...[see the bas-reliefs...especially from the temple of Philoe,
> > represents a scene of initiation.] SD II 558
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "The ancient MSS. mention these "hard couches of those who were in
> > (spiritual) travail, the act of giving birth to themselves."...remember the
> > allegory of Visvakarma, the creative power, the great architect of the
> > world, called in the Veda "the all-seeing god," who "sacrifices himself to
> > himself" (the Spiritual Egos of mortals are his own essence, one with him,
> > therefore). Remember that he is called Deva Vardhika "the builder of the
> > gods" and that it is he who ties (the Sun) Surya, his son-in-law, on his
> > lathe, in the exoteric allegory; on the Swastika, in esoteric tradition, as
> > on earth he is the Hierophant Initiator, and cuts away a portion of his
> > brightness. Visvakarma, remember again, is the Son of Yoga-Siddha, i.e.,
> > the holy power of Yoga, and the fabricator of the "fiery weapon," the magic
> > Agneyastra..." SD II 559
> > 
> > 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------
> > 
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Dallas
> > ==================
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Meredith
> > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:29 PM
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: Tantra & Theosophy Virtual Lodge
> > 
> > Thank you for the free publicity for Theosophy Virtual Lodge.
> > 
> > 
> > Tantra and Theosophy Virtual Lodge
> > 
> > I think HPB would up-chuck if she
> > saw the probable orientation of This
> > week's Theosophical Virtual Lodge
> > presentation by Robert Corrington.
> > 
> > between psychosexuality and the
> > etheric and astral bodies.>
> > 
> > Are you saying that there is no correlation between psychosexuality and 
> > the etheric or astral bodies? I attended the lecture and in my opinion, 
> > Professor Corrington presented a thoughtful, well-balanced, perspective. 
> > Unlike you, Mark, he did not presume to judge the theosophical value of 
> > a whole presentation based only on a single sentence.
> > 
> > Corrington, it says, also has a book
> > coming out on Wilhelm Reich. Reichians
> > believed that the only genuine human
> > fulfilment and psychological cure comes
> > through the sex orgasm, a perfect one
> > resulting in unconsciousness.
> > 
> > Corrington's book is already published. I would say that to judge the 
> > theosophical value of Corrington's book, based solely on the subject of 
> > the book is childish. For all you know, Corrington's book might be a 
> > challenge to those Reichian ideas you find so appalling and 
> > untheosophical. Your tendency toward judging others and their works 
> > from so little evidence only show your impotence for any meaningful 
> > discussion of the human condition. Clearly, you continue to suckle your 
> > only theosophical sustenance from the teat of Madame Blavatsky.
> > 
> > This is the polar opposite of
> > Blavatsky Theosophy. Below is pasted
> > an article by Legros on the issue with
> > quotes from Blavatsky and GdeP. I put
> > it here as it isn't a likely publication
> > for any current theosophical publication.
> > 
> > Blavatsky would have enjoyed the presentation. Yes, she would have 
> > asked Corrington some hard questions, but, unlike you Mark, she would 
> > have done it in a straightforward and honorable way right there at the 
> > public meeting AFTER she heard what he said. 
> > 
> > To my way of thinking, the issue of humanity's repressed sexual energy 
> > is an appropriate area for theosophical inquiry. The article you 
> > provided, which refers to "The Problem of Sex" presents but one 
> > perspective (that sex is a problem the solution to which is repression 
> > of sexual desire). Other perspectives are available. One that I find 
> > particularly interesting is presented by J. J. Van der Leeuw, a noted 
> > theosophist, in his book, THE FIRE OF CREATION. Van der Leeuw's view is 
> > that sexual energy is sacred and our divine duty is to transmute, not 
> > repress, that energy. This is human-divine alchemy. I would be happy 
> > to discuss sex and theosophy with you if you are up to it. 
> > 
> > As to "bta" s comments that the lecture was "something so blatantly 
> > opposite to HPB's teachings," and "is too bad because it gives newcomers 
> > a wrong impression on what TS is all about," I would reply that her 
> > perspective is sorely narrow and appears to be based almost entirely on 
> > your (Mark's) lack of information thus reinforcing the ignorance of both 
> > of you. Theosophy Virtual Lodge will, with Professor Corrington's 
> > permission, post the audio-recording of his lecture to the internet, 
> > where those who believe that it is important to go to the original 
> > source and to withhold preemptive judgments can actually hear and decide 
> > for themselves. That is theosophy at its finest, my friend -- not the 
> > overly protective religious dogma that you and a few others spew forth 
> > on theos-talk like it was your own personal orgasm. That you want to 
> > protect "newcomers" from getting the wrong ideas about HPB only 
> > indicates how afraid you are of being wrong and ultimately how little 
> > faith you have in your brothers and sisters to seek out and experience 
> > the truth for themselves --just as you did. 
> > 
> > Personally, I have no desire to be a part of any organization that puts 
> > theosophy in a box and spoon feeds it to the membership.
> > 
> > --bill
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
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> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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