Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00516)

7/26/2006 6:09 AM

		RE:  Dallas on "Robert Crosbie Claimed......"

Dear Friend Daniel:

In future why not save us all the time by actually quoting such documents,
if they actually answer your repeated questions.  WHY REPEAT ? 

It is your vague repeats that seem so time wasting to me.  I would prefer it
if new readers were given right away those references to consider, then what
you are asking might be clear from the outset.

If you have any answers, or opinions, I will be glad to read them.

Best wishes,

Dallas

=====================

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of 		danielhcaldwell
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 6:20 PM
To: 
Subject: Dallas on "Robert Crosbie Claimed......"

Dallas,

In my posting, I wrote at the end:

=========================================
See source documents at:

http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
=====================================

On this web page, the sources for most of the
quotes will be found.

Did you not check this webpage????  

DTB	[ IT IS READ, AND IN MY FILES ]

I'm sure as a student of Mr. Crosbie's life,
that you are quite familiar with all of these
documents.	

	DTB	[I AM , BUT I AM FAR MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT HE DID FOR
THEOSOPHY --  is that also your interest ? 	DTB ]


Do you dispute any of them?	

Mr. Crosbie made these claims on the dates given.

On this webpage, these are his words...not mine....

Do you dispute any of his claims??

DTB	[IF THEY ARE FACTS AND DOCUMENTS, WHY SHOULD I ?. 
   
I MERELY REFUSE TO MAKE A COMMENT, LEAVING IT TO ANY READERS TO FORM THEIR
OWN.  	

MY PERSONAL OPINIONS ARE UNIMPORTANT.	DTB ]



Daniel
http://hpb.cc
=================================


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" 
<dalval14@...> wrote: 

 7/25/2006 3:18 PM
 
 		RE: Robert Crosbie Claimed....
 
 Dear Friends:
 
 I am not under the impression that Mr. Crosbie made any "claims"   other
than being a devoted student of THEOSOPHY and openly avowing his   respect
for HPB  and WQJ -- however, let us see further: 
 
 In what appears to be a fresh format recently brought into play and adopted
by Mr. D. Caldwell, unlike most historians in search of facts,  he appears
to fail from the first to present the reader (see below), with those
accurate times and dates which are known to him. 
 
 Are we all to be subjected to a set of teasers? Are the queries genuine? 
 
 I find that he does not seem to reveal what happened subsequent to the
period (which he questions) involved -- which may have induced a  change in
Mr Crosbie's appreciation of Mrs. Tingley's conduct (under her Presidency)
of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in America .
 
 I have inserted in his text (below) CAPITAL LETTERS asking why his
observations and queries are made. Let us cut the time, the fuzziness,
etc., and come to the point (if any).
 
 To me, it is inappropriate to associate the WORK and the declared purpose
(1909) of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS with any individual, including
its chief founder: Mr. Robert Crosbie. At the end of the book The FRIENDLY
PHILOSOPHER ( pp. 409 to 415 ) those reasons and purposes will be found
detailed as they have always been made available.
 
 The impersonality and the denial of any individual's "authority" is the
hallmark of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS. 
 
 The publications for which the U L T has made itself responsible endeavour
to present THEOSOPHY as it was published, and students are expected verify
this and to do their own study – so that they may rely on their own
independent efforts, reasoning and common sense. Any good system of
education does the same. 
 
 That work is the promulgation and study of "original" THEOSOPHY. Is there
 any problem ?
 
 In retrospect we have observed that in those early years, students had few
materials for the actual study of Theosophy. 
 
 1875-88 There were only HPB's ISIS UNVEILED, articles in the issues of THE
THEOSOPHIST and THE PATH, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, and the OCCULT WORLD written
by Mr. Sinnett. 
 
 1888 - 91 Later, apart from articles in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, and  PATH,
HPB wrote THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and THE VOICE OF  THE
SILENCE. 
 
 Judge in publishing the magazine THE PATH (1886-1896), provided students
with a great many practical hints on Theosophy. These not only covered his
observations, but illustrated aspects of doctrine and metaphysics which
students were interested in.
 
 1893 - 95 	During this period Mr. Judge was attacked, exonerated, and,
later persecuted again by the chief officers of the T. S. outside of
America. Those were Col. H. S. Olcott the President Founder, and Mrs. Annie
Besant as President of the British and European Sections of the T S.
Contemporary Theosophical magazines printed articles and contributions on
 this, and from them, considered altogether one may reconstruct the motives
and events. 
 
 Neither of these two officers appeared to have understood that Mr. Judge
(and Mr. Crosbie in Boston) stood primarily for Theosophy (as HPB did) and
not only for the T S . 
 
 To them, the T S appeared to be a useful tool, to be sustained as a
promulgating body for the    doctrines of Theosophy. 
 
 To Judge and Crosbie, and others in America and England, the T S was to be
directed on the  basis of the principles which Theosophy laid down and no
others. 
 
 No individuals' "authority" was recognized by them. Each member's free-will
and free-determination was his own responsibility and no one else could
wield authority over him or her. Theosophy alone was held to be the sole
reason for the T S. and the Officers in its management ought to present that
basis at all times.
 
 Mr. Crosbie supported Mr. Judge's principles fully. He acted as one of the
"witnesses on the scene." He, kept the "link" of pure Theosophy "unbroken,"
after Mr. Judge's death. 
 
 The hints given by W.Q.J. during his life in regard to Crosbie were not
grasped by those around him, who had what they fancied to be their own
positions. And, in addition, seemed to be glamoured and deluded by the
psychic powers Mrs. Tingley exhibited (she had only been a member for only a
year prior to Mr. Judge's death). 
 
 In New York, Mr. Neresheimer, who was Mr. Judge's executor and Mr. Hargrove
went through Judge's papers. They found what was later described as an
incomplete and very fragmentary, cryptic diary of Mr. Judges', but which
Hargrove claimed (in 1896) to be an "occult" diary; and in this, he said he
detected that Mr. Judge's indicated that Mrs. Tingley was to "succeed" him.
  
 Mr. Neresheimer had introduced Mrs. Tingley to W. Q. J. about a year before
his death. She became a member of the T S. She was a psychic and apparently
did not have a very profound knowledge of Theosophical philosophy. 
 
 She had been of help to Mr. Judge during the last year of his life which
was spent in great discomfort and illness. However this gave her no special
"position" in regard to the management of the T.S.
 
 Many years later (1923), Mr. Neresheimer made a deposition outlining these
events, and in that he reversed some of his earlier pronouncements, on which
the "succession" of Mrs. Tingley had been based. 
 
 From time to time this "occult diary" has been mentioned as giving
"authority" for the "Tingley succession," however, when requests were made
to see it, or have it published, for all to verify, this was not done at
that time. Copies were made of it and are available from several 
sources, but a reader will find it is difficult to establish any coherence
in those phrases and notes. (see also: THY 3, p. 280)
 
 Mr. Judge died March 21st l896. Mr. Crosbie was in Boston. 
 
 Of the events in New-York, he wrote:-- 
 
 "Two or three of the New York members--notably E. T. Hargrove and . A.
 Neresheimer--obtained possession of Mr. Judge's keys and went through his
 private papers; in these [ they said ] they found reference to a certain
 "chela," whom Neresheimer determined to be Mrs. Tingley whom he 
had known for about a year, and whom he had brought to Judge's notice. The 
idea being  in their minds that there must of necessity be an "occult 
successor."
 Concurring in the opinion that Mrs. T. was indicated, they sent out a
circular that Judge had appointed her as such. The minds of all, being in
the receptive condition ... accepted everything as stated by the few in
New-York. 
 
 The attitude assumed by Mrs. T. soon began to estrange those members who
were brought in close touch with her in New York, but those at a distance
had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence.
 
 Those who found that they had made a mistake in the first place in foisting
Mrs. T. upon the organization were in too doubtful a position to attempt
explanations; one of them only -- Mr. Neresheimer--(who had introduced her
to Judge) -- remaining her supporter...his support was sufficient to offset
any withdrawal of the others in New York."
 
 "Mrs. T. took advantage of the situation, and most plausibly and shrewdly
strengthened her position for two years after her advent, then formed the
"UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD" with herself as absolute dictator; carrying with her
by far the greater number of the members throughout the country. A year
later she went to Point Loma and established the institution 
there." 
 
 1896-1900 	In reviewing this period, Mr. Crosbie said:-- 
 
 "I was in Boston and had no reason to doubt the statements of those in N.Y.
whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment. 
I should have known by other means the true state of affairs...when Judge
passed out
 of life, I lost touch with him; doubtless I relied on him too much, and had
not exercised my own intuition; from later events my comprehension is, that
this loss of touch was purposely done in order that I might strengthen my
weakness in that direction..."
 
 Mr. Crosbie was summoned by Mrs. Tingley to take up residence in Point Loma
outside of San Diego, California, where a Headquarters had been located for
the T S in A, now renamed UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD and THE THEOSOPHICAL
SOCIETY. 
 
 He went there with Mrs. Crosbie, and as was required then, on taking up
residence, all their assets were turned over to the organization. 
He gave his support to Mrs. Tingley, as will be noted from several articles
and letters of his written during those years. 	 THEOS. MOVEMENT
('75-'50),p. 317-19 THY 65 159-60
 
 Considering the close relationship that existed between Mr. Crosbie and Mr.
Judge, and the special position that Mr. Crosbie occupies in the
Theosophical Movement of modern times, one wonders whether Mr. Crosbie might
not be considered a "shepherd" who was following his straying "flock." And
when that "flock" dispersed, the "shepherd" went in search of a 
new one.
 
 Conflicting reports were circulated from the Point Loma organization as to
why Mr. and Mrs. Crosbie left the Point Loma establishment. None of the
family assets which he turned over at the time of entry were returned to
him. He and Mrs. Crosbie, when they left were left penniless. 
 
 Mr. Crosbie is reported to have said: -- "We quietly left Point Loma." And
that closed the subject. (The Register of Members kept in Point Loma shows a
smudged remark in red ink against his name: "EXPELLED 1904.")
 
--------------------------------------------
 
 Mr. Caldwell may still have on file the following concerning the history
book:
 
 THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875 – 1950),  330 pages, 
                         Hard Bound   $  6.00 
                         Free  "On Line" at   
 					www.phx-ult-lodge.org/
  
  Very detailed history and accurate information.
 
 [ The following explanatory statement drawn up by Robert Crosbie for the
information of all theosophists, was made public concurrently with the
foundation of "The United Lodge of Theosophists" and the adoption of its
DECLARATION by himself and the seven original Associates, on February 18,
1909.]  …..FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER  p. 412 ......

Hope this is of help
 
 Dallas
 
 =====================
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: danielhcaldwell
 Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 
 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: Robert Crosbie Claimed......
 
 Robert Crosbie made the following claims: [WHEN ?]
 
 (1) that he "recognized" Katherine Tingley as the Outer  Head "without hint
or instruction". [ WHY ? ]
  
 (2) that he recognized Katherine Tingley as "the agent of the  Master I
serve...." [ FOR HOW LONG ? ]
  
 (3) that Katherine Tingley was appointed by William Q. Judge as his
successor. [ WHERE AND WHEN IS THIS STATED ? ]
  
 (4) that William Q. Judge had said of Katherine Tingley: "she is  true as
steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting as time." [a  quote from Judge's
"occult diary"] 
 
 [ AS I RECALL THERE WAS SOME DOUBTS RAISED BY Mr. Neresheimer 
 CONCERNING THIS. NO DOUBT MR. Caldwell WILL GIVE US THE REFERENCES – WHEN,
WHERE, HOW ? ]
  
 (5) that the Point Loma T.S. Center in San Diego, California,  founded by
Mrs. Tingley, was "a realization of what William Q. Judge  lived for, worked
for, [and] hoped for...." [ WHEN AND WHERE SAID ?]
 
  See source documents at: 
 
 http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
 =====================================