Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00344)

7/18/2006 7:22 AM

	Re:	WASTING TIME & QUESTIONING OTHERS MOTIVES

Friends:

If we are immortals each of us as MONADS, then we do have time to explore
all possible areas of motive and law - the whole UNIVERSE is our
“playground.”

These two ideas support the logic of reincarnation:  implacable, universal
and impersonal LAW, and “time” as DURATION.  Add to this the philosophical
and  logical concept that one cannot have half the UNIVERSE lawful and
scattered at random the other half  --  lawless.

The concept that all things are MONADS in evolution and the Mind-stage or
plane (we are in) is only one seventh of the WHOLE, gives us a preview of
the awe-full reality of our existence and being ALIVE.

It would seem that under the KARMA that is universal motives, brotherhood,
compassion, generosity and selfishness are intermixed.  NATURE (the
UNIVERSE) appears to have the antiquity and sagacity  to handle any kind of
results =-- on the planes of the spiritual, psychic and physical  -- and
their mixtures.

Consider these words from an ancient OCCULT COMMENTARY ( S D  )

--------------------------------------

		OCCULT  CATECHISM


>From the SECRET DOCTRINE   Vol. 1

"What is that which was, is, and will be, whether there is a Universe or
not; whether there be gods or none?" asks the esoteric Senzar Catechism.
And the answer made is - SPACE.”  	S D   I  9

“The Occult Catechism contains the following questions and answers:
"What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."*
 "What is it that ever was?" "The Germ in the Root."
 "What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath."
"Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the three are one. That which ever is
IS ONE, that which ever was IS ONE, that which is ever being and becoming IS
also ONE: and this is Space."
"Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." -
 "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is
nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle,
manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods;
the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during
those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the
Mother, the summit and base of the Father, the two extremities of the
Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the
rings that are within that Ring.
Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It
proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and from within
outwardly, when it is nowhere - (i.e., maya,†one of the centres ‡ ). It
expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation).
When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the
mother draws back and ingathers. This produces the periods of Evolution and
Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya.
The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plane of the circle) is cool;
but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant.
Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element
(heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous).
Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives
them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (of the Day of Brahma,
or Manvantara). . . . " 	S D   I  pp.  11-12

OCCULT  CATECHISM


>From the SECRET DOCTRINE   Vol. 1

"What is that which was, is, and will be, whether there is a Universe or
not; whether there be gods or none?" asks the esoteric Senzar Catechism.
And the answer made is - SPACE.”  	S D   I  9
“The Occult Catechism contains the following questions and answers:

"What is it that ever is?" "Space, the eternal Anupadaka."*
 "What is it that ever was?" "The Germ in the Root."
 "What is it that is ever coming and going?" "The Great Breath."
"Then, there are three Eternals?" "No, the three are one. That which ever is
IS ONE, that which ever was IS ONE, that which is ever being and becoming IS
also ONE: and this is Space."
"Explain, oh Lanoo (disciple)." -
 "The One is an unbroken Circle (ring) with no circumference, for it is
nowhere and everywhere; the One is the boundless plane of the Circle,
manifesting a diameter only during the manvantaric periods;
the One is the indivisible point found nowhere, perceived everywhere during
those periods; it is the Vertical and the Horizontal, the Father and the
Mother, the summit and base of the Father, the two extremities of the
Mother, reaching in reality nowhere, for the One is the Ring as also the
rings that are within that Ring.
Light in darkness and darkness in light: the 'Breath which is eternal.' It
proceeds from without inwardly, when it is everywhere, and from within
outwardly, when it is nowhere - (i.e., maya,†one of the centres ‡ ). It
expands and contracts (exhalation and inhalation).
When it expands the mother diffuses and scatters; when it contracts, the
mother draws back and ingathers. This produces the periods of Evolution and
Dissolution, Manwantara and Pralaya.
The Germ is invisible and fiery; the Root (the plane of the circle) is cool;
but during Evolution and Manwantara her garment is cold and radiant.
Hot Breath is the Father who devours the progeny of the many-faced Element
(heterogeneous); and leaves the single-faced ones (homogeneous).
Cool Breath is the Mother, who conceives, forms, brings forth, and receives
them back into her bosom, to reform them at the Dawn (of the Day of Brahma,
or Manvantara). . . . "
	S D   I  pp.  11-12

EXTRACTS FROM A PRIVATE COMMENTARY,  hitherto secret:―
(xvii.) "The Initial Existence in the first twilight of the Maha-Manwantara
(after the MAHA-PRALAYA that follows every age of Brahma) is a CONSCIOUS
SPIRITUAL QUALITY. In the manifested WORLDS (solar systems) it is, in its
OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVITY, like the film from a Divine Breath to the gaze of
the entranced seer. It spreads as it issues from LAYA † throughout infinity
as a colourless spiritual fluid. It is on the SEVENTH PLANE, and in its
SEVENTH STATE in our planetary world. ‡
(xviii.) "It is Substance to OUR spiritual sight. It cannot be called so by
men in their WAKING STATE; therefore they have named it in their ignorance
'God-Spirit.'
(xix.) "It exists everywhere and forms the first UPADHI (foundation) on
which our World (solar system) is built. Outside the latter it is to be
found in its pristine purity only between (the solar systems or) the Stars
of the Universe, the worlds already formed or forming; those in LAYA resting
meanwhile in its bosom. As its substance is of a different kind from that
known on earth, the inhabitants of the latter, seeing THROUGH IT, believe in
their illusion and ignorance that it is empty space.
There is not one finger's breath (ANGULA) of void Space in the whole
Boundless (Universe).........
(xx.) "Matter or Substance is septenary within our World, as it is so beyond
it. Moreover, each of its states or principles is graduated into seven
degrees of density. SURYA (the Sun), in its visible reflection, exhibits the
first, or lowest state of the seventh, the highest state of the Universal
PRESENCE, the pure of the pure, the first manifested Breath of the ever
Unmanifested SAT (Be-ness). All the Central physical or objective Suns are
in their substance the lowest state of the first Principle of the BREATH.
Nor are any of these any more than the REFLECTIONS of their PRIMARIES which
are concealed from the gaze of all but the Dhyan Chohans, whose Corporeal
substance belongs to the fifth division of the seventh Principle of the
Mother substance, and is,
therefore, four degrees higher than the solar reflected substance. As there
are seven Dhatu (principal substances in the human body) so there are seven
Forces in Man and in all Nature.

(xxi.) "The real substance of the concealed (Sun) is a nucleus of Mother
substance. It is the heart and the matrix of all the living and existing
Forces in our solar universe. It is the Kernel from which proceed to spread
on their cyclic journeys all the Powers that set in action the atoms in
their functional duties, and the focus within which they again meet in their
SEVENTH ESSENCE every eleventh year. He who tells thee he has seen the sun,
laugh at him † as if he had said that the sun moves really onward on his
diurnal path . . . .

(xxiii). "It is on account of his septenary nature that the Sun is spoken of
by the ancients as one who is driven by seven horses equal to the metres of
the Vedas; or, again, that, though he is identified with the SEVEN "Gaina"
(classes of being) in his orb, he is distinct from them,  as he is, indeed;
as also that he has SEVEN RAYS, as indeed he has . .
 . .
(xxv.) "The Seven Beings in the Sun are the Seven Holy Ones, Self-born from
the inherent power in the matrix of Mother substance. It is they who send
the Seven Principal Forces, called rays, which at the beginning of Pralaya
will centre into seven new Suns for the next Manvantara. The energy from
which they spring into conscious existence in every Sun, is what some people
call Vishnu (see foot-note below), which is the Breath of the ABSOLUTENESS.

We call it the One manifested life-itself a reflection of the
Absolute.........
(xxvi.) "The latter must never be mentioned in words or speech LEST IT
SHOULD TAKE AWAY SOME OF OUR SPIRITUAL ENERGIES THAT ASPIRE towards ITS
state, gravitating ever onward unto IT spiritually, as the whole physical
universe gravitates towards ITS manifested centre-cosmically.
(xxvii.) "The former-the Initial existence-which may be called while in this
state of being the ONE LIFE, is, as explained, a FILM for creative or
formative Purposes. It manifests in seven states, which, with their
septenary sub-divisions, are the FORTY-NINE Fires* mentioned in sacred books
. . . . . .
(xxix.) "The first is the . . . . 'Mother' (prima MATERIA). Separating
itself into its primary seven states, it proceeds down cyclically; when †
having consolidated itself in its LAST principle as GROSS MATTER, it
revolves around itself and informs, with the seventh emanation of the last,
the first and the lowest element (the Serpent biting its own tail). In a
hierarchy, or order of being, the seventh emanation of her last principle
is:-

(a) In the mineral, the spark that lies latent in it, and is called to its
evanescent being by the POSITIVE awakening the NEGATIVE (and so forth) . . .
.

(b) In the plant it is that vital and intelligent Force which informs the
seed and develops it into the blade of grass, or the root and sapling. It is
the germ which becomes the UPADHI of the seven principles of the thing it
resides in, shooting them out as the latter grows and develops.

(c) In every animal it does the same. It is its life principle and vital
power; its instinct and qualities; its characteristics and special
idiosyncrasies . . . .

(d) To man, it gives all that it bestows on all the rest of the manifested
units in nature; but develops, furthermore, the reflection of all its
FORTY-NINE FIRES in him. Each of his seven principles is an heir in full to,
and a partaker of, the seven principles of the "great Mother." The breath of
her first principle is his spirit (Atma). Her second principle is BUDDHI
(soul). We call it, erroneously, the seventh. The third furnishes him with
(a) the brain stuff on the physical plane, and (b) with the MIND that moves
it [which is the human soul.-H. P. B.]-according to his organic capacities.

(e) It is the guiding Force in the Cosmic and terrestrial elements. It
resides in the Fire provoked out of its latent into active being; for the
whole of the seven subdivisions of the * * * principle reside in the
terrestrial Fire. It whirls in the breeze, blows with the hurricane, and
sets the air in motion, which element participates in one of its principles
also. Proceeding cyclically, it regulates the motion of the water, attracts
and repels the waves* according to fixed laws of which its seventh principle
is the informing soul.

(f) Its four higher principles contain the germ that develops into the
Cosmic Gods; its three lower ones breed the lives of the Elements
(Elementals).

(g) In our Solar world, the One Existence is Heaven and the Earth, the Root
and the flower, the Action and the Thought. It is in the Sun, and is as
present in the glow-worm. Not an atom can escape it. Therefore, the ancient
Sages have wisely called it the manifested God in Nature. . . ." 	S D
I  289 -292





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Has anyone else found or seen evidence of this ?

Best wishes.

Dallas


==================

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of plcoles1
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:24 PM
To:
Subject: wasting time & questioning others motives ?

To Daniel and Carlos ,

The Mahatma letters a couple of times mention the importance of
motive.
Motives are those things that drive us to do what we do, often they
are mixed sometimes they are relatively clear and some maybe even
unconscious, peoples motives can only ever really at best be very
tentatively theorised upon.

Open historical criticism is essential for any organisation that is
committed to seeking truth rather than fantasy, denial and
perpetuating myths.

Of course any critique is limited and also needs to be critiqued by
others, this process is not in order to come to an absolute
conclusion but is rather ongoing and one of looking openly and
honestly and various points of view and interpretation of what facts
are available.

Any genuine truth seeker and any organisation concerned with the
pursuit of truth should be ready to face information that may
overturn long held beliefs or contradict the established
institutional memory.

Demonising or expelling those who fail to conform to the `party line'
is something that should never be condoned in the theosophical
society in any form, not only does it go diametrically go against the
spirit of why the society was founded in the first place but it also
creates an environment that makes it impossible for it to move
forward with credibility.

The TS seems to have an institutional mindset that anything of a
negative or of a critical nature is retrograde and bad and therefore
not theosophical.

This organisational mindset it seems from my point of view to be
extreme and unbalanced, while being a critic just for the sake of
causing trouble and discord for its own sake would not be
theosophical, certainly valid and properly motivated criticism is
absolutely essential for genuine freedom of thought to be maintained
and promoted.

In a theosophical society people are free to continue to believe what
they choose even if those things may have been proven to be suspect
or even blatantly false, they can freely believe what they choose,
but to then on the other hand suppress someone's right to freely
express valid critique of those beliefs is not only hypocritical but
creates an environment of suppression and allows falsehood to
continue to be perpetuated as truth under the guise of `brotherhood'.

Both loving concern and respect for the beliefs of others needs to be
tempered with a willingness to use sound reasoning and valid
criticism, freedom needs both of these principles to be functioning
in order to promote genuine brotherhood and pursuit of truth.

Interestingly the Australian Section of the Theosophical society has
allowed criticisms of the Madame Blavatsky's work the `Secret
Doctrine' on 2 occasions in recent years in its national
magazine "Theosophy in Australia" a policy I fully support.

However would the same types of critiques of Leadbeater's writings or
Mrs Besant's be allowed ?

>From all the attempts I have made to find an affirmative to this
question I have only received vague denials that there is even a
problem.

The question remains open until evidence to the contrary is forth
coming.
There does seem to be a double standard in treatment of Blavatsky on
the one hand and Leadbeater and Besant on the other.

Denying these freedoms by not allowing both sides of an argument to
voice their perspectives is denial and denial of this kind can only
lead to the type of `truth' that Orwell spoke about in 1984 with
the "Ministry of truth" & "Ministry of Love" ie. propaganda,
suppression and conformity.

It seems with what has transpired with the publication of the letters
of HPB including some allegedly forged by Solovyov we are presented
with an opportunity.

I would suggest that instead of wasting time questioning motives of
people we should instead present and examine the evidence for or
against these letters being either fully or in part forgeries.

As a student I would much rather hear the arguments from those who
have studied these letters as to why they do or don't feel them to be
forgeries than hearing accusations of insincere motives on those who
have published them.

I am personally glad the letters are available for my perusal as a
student, even though I personally feel more additional information
should have been made in the volume regarding their suspect nature.

Cheers

Perry
.