Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00329)

Daniel,

No confusion at all.

I disagree from Cooper's and Tillett's opinion on the publication of obviously false letters.  This does not make Cooper, or Tillett, publicists of slanders. Why is that? 

First, because they are, or were,  in favour of identifying in a proper way the "doubtful", or rather forged, letters. 

Second, because they are, and were, not going around making propaganda of such libelous stuff.

Third, they also did not invent "David Green", "Terry Hobbes"  and other "fiction characters" to  attack theosophical groups  in disguised ways. Etc. 

I hope you understand it this time and stop slandering HPB on your turn.


Best and hopeful regards,  Carlos. 




De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:59:14 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Carlos on "THEOSOPHISTRY IN ACTION"

> Carlos,
> 
> Regarding your comments below, readers can judge
> whether you or I are engaged in Theosphistry.
> 
> It seems to me that you are confusing and mixing up several
> distinct issues.
> 
> The first issue and in fact it seems the most
> important issue is the issue of INCLUSION as illustrated by John
> Cooper's words:
> 
> "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
> ...." caps added.
> 
> From everything I have read emanating from you, you have stated that 
> to INCLUDE any of the disputed letters in said volume is to libel
> and slander HPB. This you have stated time and time again.
> 
> If I have misunderstood you on this point, please state specifically
> your real position.
> 
> Again on the issue of INCLUSION, you even wrote:
> 
> "...Tillett seems to defend THE PUBLICATION of false letters and
> libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
> something which no true historian would do...." caps added.
> 
> Again one could conclude that you consider Tillett "no true
> historian" for his defending THE PUBLICATION, that is, the
> INCLUSION of these "false letters and libels" in a volume of HPB's 
> letters.
> 
> And as regards to your statement that Tillett is staying 
> "away from having strong opinions with regard to the False Letters 
> controversy," I believe he has a DEFINITE view (whether "strong" 
> or not). Read what he wrote himself:
> 
> "John's view (AND MINE) is that no scholarly editor can simply omit
> material [letters] on the grounds that some people [like Aveline??]
> question its veracity." caps added.
> 
> This is his view whether strong or not...but certainly it is a 
> definite view and one that appears totally OPPOSITE of your view.
> 
> And notice that in the new purposed volume of HPB's letters 
> (compiled and edited by Jerome Wheeler [??]), NONE of these disputed 
> letters will be included. That is, they will be REMOVED....not 
> included.
> 
> And I assume you agree with this policy of COMPLETE REMOVAL.
> 
> There are other issues but they need not be discussed in this 
> posting.
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Friends,
> > 
> > Again you see below an example of modern theosophistry. 
> > 
> > In fact John Cooper would have published the false letters 
> probably well identified as such. A mistake, perhaps, but not 
> comparable to the disguised slandering being done by Algeo and 
> Caldwell. 
> > 
> > As we know, Gregory Tillett is NOT supporting Algeo's wor. Just 
> the other way around. 
> > 
> > Tillett stays away from having strong opinions with regard to the 
> False Letters controversy. He says he did not analyse the question 
> deeply, and his position should be respected. 
> > 
> > Yet respect for people or for facts is not the strongest 
> characteristic of modern sophists, as we see with John Algeo's 
> utter lack of respect for John Cooper's family, according to 
> Tillett. Coincidently, these are the people who try to offend HPB 
> and the Masters, under a cover. 
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline. 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Mon, 17 Jul 2006 03:44:47 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World GIVEN by Cooper, FOLLOWED by Algeo & SUPPORTED 
> by Tillett
> > 
> > > When the late John Cooper was editor of HPB's Collected Letters, 
> he
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
> > > ...." caps added.
> > > 
> > > On Theos-Talk, Mr. Cooper's good friend, Gregory Tillett, has
> > > recently wrote, under the heading of "John Cooper and 
> the 'dubious'
> > > letters", the following:
> > > 
> > > "John's view (and mine) is that no scholarly editor can simply 
> omit
> > > material [letters] on the grounds that some people [like 
> Aveline??]
> > > question its veracity."
> > > 
> > > Now COMPARE what Mr. Aveline says in one of his frequent
> > > pronouncements:
> > > 
> > > "...Tillett seems to defend the publication of false letters and
> > > libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
> > > something which no true historian would do...."
> > > 
> > > It would appear here that Mr. Aveline is giving us HIS 
> definition of
> > > a "true historian".
> > > 
> > > And by this definition, it appears that Mr. Aveline is suggesting
> > > (if not claiming) that both Tillett and Cooper are NOT
> > > true historians.
> > > 
> > > Moving on…..
> > > 
> > > Now in previous postings on Theos-Talk, Mr. Aveline has from 
> time to
> > > time given what one might consider "praise" to Michael Gomes, to
> > > Leslie Price and even to Patrick Deveney.
> > > 
> > > Below are some of Mr. Aveline's relevant comments.
> > > 
> > > In one posting, Aveline writes about:
> > > 
> > > [1] "historians like Michael Gomes and Leslie Price."
> > > 
> > > One assumes he means they are TRUE historians and not PSEUDO
> > > historians.
> > > 
> > > As opposed to the likes of Cooper and Tillett?????
> > > 
> > > Aveline writes in other postings:
> > > 
> > > [2] "Three good examples these people [various slanderers, 
> pseudo-
> > > historians??] could follow are Leslie Price, Michael Gomes and
> > > Ernest Pelletier -- who have different positions/opinions, but 
> all
> > > respect facts and examine their own sources."
> > > 
> > > [3] "Michael Gomes do [sic] not support Soloviof or the Coulombs 
> as
> > > a historical source, as Leslie Price also does not do, as long 
> as I
> > > know."
> > > 
> > > [4] "Michael Gomes' position, as a Historian, is clear. He
> > > acknowledges HPB's authenticity as a person, as a thinker and as 
> a
> > > writer."
> > > 
> > > [5] "One must admit that Michael Gomes has been no slanderer and 
> no
> > > libel-propagator so far."
> > > 
> > > [6] "If John Patrick Deveney is involved in the work of Volume 
> II,
> > > as I have heard, one might hope that perhaps some improvement 
> will
> > > occur."
> > > 
> > > [7] "Let's see what Patrick Deveney does in the second volume of 
> HPB
> > > Letters. He may improve things."
> > > 
> > > Now I realize that there are mysterious depths to some aspects of
> > > Mr. Aveline's thinking as revealed in his various pronouncements,
> > > but I ask:
> > > 
> > > Is Mr. Aveline in all of his above quoted statements praising the
> > > above-mentioned individuals as good scholars and TRUE historians?
> > > 
> > > Is he contrasting them with those slanderers, libel-propagators 
> and
> > > pseudo-historians?
> > > 
> > > But a nagging question arises from all of the above, especially 
> from
> > > Aveline's pronouncement which reads:
> > > 
> > > "...Tillett seems to defend the publication of false letters and
> > > libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
> > > something which no true historian would do...."
> > > 
> > > The nagging question:
> > > 
> > > Do Gomes, Price and Deveney fully agree and support John Cooper's
> > > editorial policy which reads:
> > > 
> > > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,...." caps added.
> > > 
> > > Or phrasing it differently, do Gomes, Price and Deveney "defend" 
> the
> > > publication of the so-called "false letters" or "dubious letters"
> > > in HPB's Collected Letters? Not only in Volume I but in all 
> FUTURE
> > > volumes???
> > > 
> > > And if they actually support that policy, will Mr. Aveline then
> > > honestly and frankly label them as "no true" historians? Will he 
> be
> > > consistent and call them slanderers and libel-propagators?
> > > 
> > > Dr. John Algeo by also following Mr. Cooper's policy has been
> > > constantly labeled a "slanderer".
> > > 
> > > If Mr. Deveney, Mr. Gomes and Mr. Price support and CONTINUE to
> > > support this Cooper-Algeo policy will Mr. Aveline call them a
> > > similar epithet?
> > > 
> > > The email and postal addresses of these three gentlemen can be 
> found
> > > on the WWW at:
> > > 
> > > http://www.theohistory.org/collab.html
> > > 
> > > It will be interesting to see if Mr. Aveline will write to each 
> of
> > > them FRANKLY asking if they support the policy GIVEN by John 
> Cooper,
> > > FOLLOWED by Dr. Algeo and SUPPORTED by Dr. Tillett:
> > > 
> > > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
> > > ...." caps added.
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?
> +_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1153108053.97627.19278.curepipe.hst.terra.com.
> br,7571,Des15,Des15
> > > 
> > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
> > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 14/07/2006 / 
> Versão: 4.4.00/4807
> > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1153156374.654668.6236.baladonia.hst.terra.com.br,12405,20031127114101,20031127114101
> 
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
> Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 17/07/2006 / Versão: 4.4.00/4808
> Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]