Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00324)

Carlos,

Regarding your comments below, readers can judge
whether you or I are engaged in Theosphistry.

It seems to me that you are confusing and mixing up several
distinct issues.

The first issue and in fact it seems the most
important issue is the issue of INCLUSION as illustrated by John
Cooper's words:

"...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
...." caps added.

>From everything I have read emanating from you, you have stated that 
to INCLUDE any of the disputed letters in said volume is to libel
and slander HPB.  This you have stated time and time again.

If I have misunderstood you on this point, please state specifically
your real position.

Again on the issue of INCLUSION, you even wrote:

"...Tillett seems to defend THE PUBLICATION of false letters and
libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
something which no true historian would do...." caps added.

Again one could conclude that you consider Tillett "no true
historian" for his defending THE PUBLICATION, that is, the
INCLUSION of these "false letters and libels" in a volume of HPB's 
letters.

And as regards to your statement that Tillett is staying 
"away from having strong opinions with regard to the False Letters 
controversy,"  I believe he has a DEFINITE  view (whether "strong" 
or not).  Read what he wrote himself:

"John's view (AND MINE) is that no scholarly editor can simply omit
material [letters] on the grounds that some people [like Aveline??]
question its veracity." caps added.

This is his view whether strong or not...but certainly it is a 
definite view and one that appears totally OPPOSITE of your view.

And notice that in the new purposed volume of HPB's letters 
(compiled and edited by Jerome Wheeler [??]), NONE of these disputed 
letters will be included.  That is, they will be REMOVED....not 
included.

And I assume you agree with this policy of COMPLETE REMOVAL.

There are other issues but they need not be discussed in this 
posting.

Daniel
http://hpb.cc


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Friends,
> 
> Again you see below an example of modern theosophistry. 
> 
> In fact John Cooper would have published the false letters 
probably well identified as such. A mistake, perhaps, but not 
comparable to the disguised  slandering being done by Algeo and 
Caldwell. 
> 
> As we know, Gregory Tillett is NOT supporting Algeo's wor. Just 
the other way around. 
> 
> Tillett stays away from having strong opinions with regard to the 
False Letters controversy. He says he did not analyse the question 
deeply, and his position should be respected. 
> 
> Yet respect for people or for facts is not the strongest  
characteristic of modern sophists, as  we see with John Algeo's 
utter lack of respect for John Cooper's family, according to 
Tillett. Coincidently, these are the people who try to offend HPB 
and the Masters, under a cover. 
> 
> 
> Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline. 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Mon, 17 Jul 2006 03:44:47 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World GIVEN by Cooper, FOLLOWED by Algeo & SUPPORTED 
by Tillett
> 
> > When the late John Cooper was editor of HPB's Collected Letters, 
he
> > wrote:
> > 
> > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
> > ...." caps added.
> > 
> > On Theos-Talk, Mr. Cooper's good friend, Gregory Tillett, has
> > recently wrote, under the heading of "John Cooper and 
the 'dubious'
> > letters", the following:
> > 
> > "John's view (and mine) is that no scholarly editor can simply 
omit
> > material [letters] on the grounds that some people [like 
Aveline??]
> > question its veracity."
> > 
> > Now COMPARE what Mr. Aveline says in one of his frequent
> > pronouncements:
> > 
> > "...Tillett seems to defend the publication of false letters and
> > libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
> > something which no true historian would do...."
> > 
> > It would appear here that Mr. Aveline is giving us HIS 
definition of
> > a "true historian".
> > 
> > And by this definition, it appears that Mr. Aveline is suggesting
> > (if not claiming) that both Tillett and Cooper are NOT
> > true historians.
> > 
> > Moving on…..
> > 
> > Now in previous postings on Theos-Talk, Mr. Aveline has from 
time to
> > time given what one might consider "praise" to Michael Gomes, to
> > Leslie Price and even to Patrick Deveney.
> > 
> > Below are some of Mr. Aveline's relevant comments.
> > 
> > In one posting, Aveline writes about:
> > 
> > [1] "historians like Michael Gomes and Leslie Price."
> > 
> > One assumes he means they are TRUE historians and not PSEUDO
> > historians.
> > 
> > As opposed to the likes of Cooper and Tillett?????
> > 
> > Aveline writes in other postings:
> > 
> > [2] "Three good examples these people [various slanderers, 
pseudo-
> > historians??] could follow are Leslie Price, Michael Gomes and
> > Ernest Pelletier -- who have different positions/opinions, but 
all
> > respect facts and examine their own sources."
> > 
> > [3] "Michael Gomes do [sic] not support Soloviof or the Coulombs 
as
> > a historical source, as Leslie Price also does not do, as long 
as I
> > know."
> > 
> > [4] "Michael Gomes' position, as a Historian, is clear. He
> > acknowledges HPB's authenticity as a person, as a thinker and as 
a
> > writer."
> > 
> > [5] "One must admit that Michael Gomes has been no slanderer and 
no
> > libel-propagator so far."
> > 
> > [6] "If John Patrick Deveney is involved in the work of Volume 
II,
> > as I have heard, one might hope that perhaps some improvement 
will
> > occur."
> > 
> > [7] "Let's see what Patrick Deveney does in the second volume of 
HPB
> > Letters. He may improve things."
> > 
> > Now I realize that there are mysterious depths to some aspects of
> > Mr. Aveline's thinking as revealed in his various pronouncements,
> > but I ask:
> > 
> > Is Mr. Aveline in all of his above quoted statements praising the
> > above-mentioned individuals as good scholars and TRUE historians?
> > 
> > Is he contrasting them with those slanderers, libel-propagators 
and
> > pseudo-historians?
> > 
> > But a nagging question arises from all of the above, especially 
from
> > Aveline's pronouncement which reads:
> > 
> > "...Tillett seems to defend the publication of false letters and
> > libels in general, IF they are identified as 'doubtful'. This is
> > something which no true historian would do...."
> > 
> > The nagging question:
> > 
> > Do Gomes, Price and Deveney fully agree and support John Cooper's
> > editorial policy which reads:
> > 
> > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,...." caps added.
> > 
> > Or phrasing it differently, do Gomes, Price and Deveney "defend" 
the
> > publication of the so-called "false letters" or "dubious letters"
> > in HPB's Collected Letters? Not only in Volume I but in all 
FUTURE
> > volumes???
> > 
> > And if they actually support that policy, will Mr. Aveline then
> > honestly and frankly label them as "no true" historians? Will he 
be
> > consistent and call them slanderers and libel-propagators?
> > 
> > Dr. John Algeo by also following Mr. Cooper's policy has been
> > constantly labeled a "slanderer".
> > 
> > If Mr. Deveney, Mr. Gomes and Mr. Price support and CONTINUE to
> > support this Cooper-Algeo policy will Mr. Aveline call them a
> > similar epithet?
> > 
> > The email and postal addresses of these three gentlemen can be 
found
> > on the WWW at:
> > 
> > http://www.theohistory.org/collab.html
> > 
> > It will be interesting to see if Mr. Aveline will write to each 
of
> > them FRANKLY asking if they support the policy GIVEN by John 
Cooper,
> > FOLLOWED by Dr. Algeo and SUPPORTED by Dr. Tillett:
> > 
> > "...All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will
> > INCLUDE letters whose authenticity is doubtful,
> > ...." caps added.
> > 
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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