Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00742)

Christina and Bruce,

Thanks. 

By the end of his message, see below, Bruce says: 

"Olcott made a mistake. I believe that he came to understand
his mistake."

I add:

Laura Holloway reports on H.S. Olcott's self-criticism in a text included in "DAMODAR", the book written by Sven Eek and published by Adyar TPH with a preface by N. Sri Ram.  Olcott's self-criticism with regard to HPB was made soon before his death. 

Regards, Carlos. 

 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Mon, 22 May 2006 20:31:06 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Stop it!

> Dear Christina,
> 
> I must preface what I have to say with the fact that I have not quite
> caught on to the rhythm of your english and may consequently have
> misunderstood your points. If that is so, I suspect that what I have to
> say will apply to others who hold the beliefs that I may be unfairly
> projecting onto you.
> 
> Theosophists will debate many things about the Ancient Wisdom Tradition.
> For instance there is a big debate going on right now about Volume III
> of the SD in the pages of theos-talk. It is amusing and instructive as
> to how the debate is being conducted. Instead of detailed and laborious
> investigation of content to see whether it is in the spirit and style of
> the first two volumes, we see a debate that seems to hinge on whether
> the volume can be more rightly attritbuted to HPB or to AB and Mead. If
> I understand you correctly, you would see this debate to be about
> nothing because people should be able to read Volume III and decide for
> themselves whether there is anything of worth in it or not, and what
> that might be. Theosophists can think for themselves so why all the
> fighting over nothing? In the strictest sense, of course, you are
> correct. However, I would argue that all those involved in the debate
> understand this fact, therefore the debate must be about something else.
> 
> The something else that I suspect you and many at this site perceive is
> that it is a simple fight between fundamentalist followers of this or
> that school of theosophy and certain free-thinking scientifically
> trained researchers who are expressing a certain freedom of thought that
> we, as theosophists, should not be afraid to entertain. That being so,
> theosophists should simply drop all this arguing about the past and
> focus on the present, the fundamentalists need to grow up and not worry
> about what other theosophists think. This I would argue is where you
> and many others are in error.
> 
> I quoted earlier the following from Judge:
> 
> >If she hoodwinked with one message, all may be the same -bogus-and
> >the great force and strength derived from a firm belief in Masters
> >will be swept away, because she, their first messenger to us, is made
> >out a fraud. All this is precisely what Olcott et al wish to do. He
> >cannot tolerate the idea that H.P.B. was greater than himself, so he
> >throws around her memory the dirty cloak of tricky and irresponsible
> >mediumship. That done, anything can be explained and anything
> >accounted for.
> >
> >Well, for my part, I will not accept such nonsense; Col. Olcott being
> >incompetent to decide on Mahatmic messages on occult lines, and being
> >a disciple of H.P.B. is certainly much below her. His present
> >utterance settles nothing about her character, about her mediumship
> >or about the message; but it does serve to brand him as an ingrate
> >and to place him plainly in view as one who calls that great teacher
> >a fraud and medium.
> >
> >Now let the next and the next come on, so that we may have the lines
> >clearly drawn and the hypocrisies unveiled.
> 
> see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/33481
> 
> Judge is saying that logically, if HPB is a fraud and a medium, ANYTHING
> AT ALL can be argued once you allow this possibility to be entertained. 
> This is simple logic and is not at question. It could easily be argued
> that the fraud, HPB, was a Jesuit sent to undermine the esoteric
> movement before it even began. Why not? Allegations will of course be
> made against HPB by her many enemies, but it is important that
> Thesophists defend her and not allow these allegations to be entertained
> within the Society.
> 
> Judge then goes on to say that Olcott's words brand him "as an ingrate".
> We have read again and again that the Masters cannot be accused of
> ingratitude. There is something about the esoteric philosophy that
> makes ingratitude an anathema. All theosophists owe HPB (and Judge) a
> debt of gratitude. To stand by and allow her name to be sullied by
> unfounded accusations is wrong. If the accusations are founded, then we
> say nothing. The fact that none of the awful accusations thrown at HPB
> or Judge have ever been proven makes it doubtful that they ever will. 
> So where are we?
> 
> We are at the point where Judge writes, "let the next and the next come
> on, so that we may have the lines clearly drawn and the hypocrisies
> unveiled." It is sheer hypocrisy for theosophists to demonstrate
> ingratitude towards another. All theosophists are in a group that
> encourage debate about religion, science, and philosophy. There are no
> creeds endorsed by theosophy. As such there is no reason to question
> the motivations of another. We all have our motivations and yet we can
> still be theosophists. Why? Because we stick to talking about topics. 
> The hypocrisy that Judge alludes to is that some theosophists want to
> make HPB, herself, a topic. As soon as you do this you destroy the
> Theosophical Movement. Logically, anything can be argued. Yet, if
> there are no established creeds, what can the motivation be for making
> HPB a topic? Logically, only the destruction of the Society. This is
> why some theosophists are so passionate about this debate. I think
> other theosophists sense this fact and try to steer clear of this debate
> as they cannot win it.
> 
> Theosophists have not created a Society that delves into the foibles of
> others. In fact, despite our foibles, we can still be theosophists. 
> Our foibles play no part in the ongoing debate. If anyone tries to
> attack you through your own personal inadequacies, this is the one cause
> for expulsion from the Society. Attacks of this nature poison the
> Society. If you look at the Theosophical Motto and its Objectives, it
> is clear that the Society was established as the one place where people
> could debate free from personal attack. As a brotherhood it was
> expected that others would rush to your aid if you were attacked. It is
> this lesson that theosophists have not learned, and if we do not learn
> it now it may be another 100 years and untold huamn suffering before we
> get another chance.
> 
> Christina, Olcott made a mistake. I believe that he came to understand
> his mistake. What is important for the future of the Theosophical
> Movement, if there is to be one, is that the rest of us try to
> understand the lessons our President-founder paid so dearly to learn. 
> We all owe him a debt of gratitude. If we learn and understand this,
> then the internal fighting will stop immediately.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, christina leestemaker
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Eldon
> >
> > For a lot of years i see the same actions in lodges, only in more
> delicate way, but all the same.
> > Looks like they have not understand lectures and stay coloring all
> in the personal fields.Also the overflow on messages of some kind of
> persons, that looks like supporting and competition in the race for"
> truth".
> >
> > But everywhere the same.
> > More reason for take some rest in reading ,what looks like "
> esoteric soap."
> >
> > New millenium does not need to look back at old personal feuds of
> any writer or teacher.
> >
> > Everyone in this generation have enough brains to think for him or
> herself.
> >
> > Also to ignore or to find something behind that less important 
> messages.
> > Otherwise I don't understand the projections of people, but they are
> doing and let them, that teach to see through it.
> >
> > The only thing we need is the true insight and the essence of the
> ancient wisdom.
> > What everyone integrate on his or her own level of consciousness.
> >
> > For that are happely enough lectures published on the web and not to
> forget the books we can read.
> >
> >
> > All groups are busy with enjoying themselves as a kind of
> entertainment , as far as I can see.
> > Those who are calling names, that is more telling about the persons
> self.
> >
> > best regards, Christina
> >
> >
> > Eldon B Tucker eldon_tucker@... wrote:
> > Since my message Saturday, there have been more problems with the
> > list. For anyone that wishes to continue participating on the list,
> > this has to stop.
> >
> > What I've noticed (not necessarily a complete list of incidents) is:
> >
> > Vince called Daniel evil. Vince called Carlos dumb. Frank mentions
> > Carlos "works with suggestions, make believe and slander, ignores and
> > twists facts." Frank later mentions to Carlos, "any sane theosophist
> > cannot fail to come to the conclusion that you are NOT a fool."
> > Another note says, "the Dugpas are behind you. They eat your soul."
> > Vince then returns to say "Daniel is evil."
> >
> > Although some running battles have traumatized the list a few months
> > ago causing some people to leave the list, they are in the past. If
> > anything gets out of hand, the thread of discussion will be closed
> > before such could happen again.
> >
> > The request that people stop the name-calling applies to everyone. It
> > does not mean that some people behave themselves while others lash out
> > seeking to satisfy any pent up anger, hostility, or ill will that they
> > still carry. There are not any exceptions based upon the number of
> > good or bad messages that anyone has written over the past few months.
> >
> > This is my last warning.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1�/min with
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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