Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00721)

Carlos, what an utter nonsense you reply to Cass.
It is YOU, not Cass who does not understand.
Why do you project your problems onto others?

Cass is quite right in interpreting HPB.

Cass knows that initiation is the point as 
otherwise she could not give this answers.

Do not present yourself as a fool. The dugpas are 
behind you. They eat your soul.

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "carlosaveline" <carlosaveline@terra.com.br>
To: "theos-talk" <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: Theos-World TO CASS ON THE USE OF WORDS



Cass,

You entirely failed to see that this was not about 
individuals. Perhaps perhaps you cannot go beyond 
personal names.

It was  about initiation, eastern and western, 
and the limited usefulness of words.  (Our 
"dialogue" plainly shows that limitation.)

You do not want to see what is initiation -- the 
whole point. Guess there is no need to go on... 
Hoping this is enough,

Best regards,  Carlos.





De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Thu, 18 May 2006 17:31:57 -0700 (PDT)

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World TO CASS ON THE USE 
OF WORDS

> Carlos
> I have been reading HPB for 20 years and realise 
> that sometimes her ideas work on several levels 
> at once, as above, so below. However, in this 
> particular case HPB is defining the difference 
> between a Medium and and an Adept. You refuse to 
> see it because I imagine that Socrates is your 
> hero. In their relationship Plato/Socrates, it 
> was the pupil who understood more than the 
> master.
>
> Cass
>
> carlosaveline wrote: Cass,
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Perhaps you are not completely familiar with the 
> fact that, with HPB, and in Esoteric Philosophy, 
> there is never only one meaning for one word.
>
> Besides, the meanings of the words evolved as 
> living things, especially in the period 
> 1875-1891.
>
> There are plenty of examples.
>
> Another one, besides "medium" (a word that took 
> some time before getting derogatory) is 
> "spiritism". You will find HPB saying she is a 
> spiritualist.
>
> A key word with several meanings is "Adept", 
> and/or "adept". It can mean "an Experienced 
> Student"; "an Initiateeastern)", or " a 
> Jivanmukta/Raja Yogui".
>
> One more: "Initiate" -- as we have been seeing 
> recently with regard to Socrates. It can mean 
> "Affiliated to the Mysteries" (Western and 
> Masonic meaning) or "A Being With an Expanded 
> Consciousness (Eastern meaning).
>
> The use of one-meaning for each word belongs to 
> the CWL/AB's system.
>
> They thought the HPB/Masters conceptual system 
> was too complex and "confused"; they transformed 
> Occult Philosophy in a three dimensional, 
> cathecism process to be believed in.
>
> So our dialogue is not about this or that 
> particular issue -- it gets now to the 
> philosophy of word-using.
>
> In Occult Philosophy, words are used in a more 
> complex way, in order to test one's expansion of 
> consciousness. Each particular word-meaning is 
> gotten by the context, more than by the 
> dictionary; and not by the context of the 
> sentence -- by the context of the philosophy, 
> and of the paragraph.
>
> Thus it is said that there are sevel levels on 
> which one can read "The Secret Doctrine". None 
> of them mechanistical...
>
> It is in that sense that, by publishing the 
> WORDS of Esoteric Texts by HPB, Daniel Caldwell 
> has not really published the Esoteric 
> Instructions. The key to understand any text 
> depends on one's intention and its degree of 
> purity; on one's clarity of mind; on one's 
> impersonality as one searches for Truth pure and 
> simple, for the Facts pure and simple.
>
> So the question is much wider than just 
> realizing Socrates was a real and respected Sage 
> in HPB and the Masters view, not a "medium" in 
> the average sense of the word today. It is easy 
> to see that HPB hasx a high regard for him, and 
> the Masters. Yet the use of words should be 
> studied as a subject in itself by students of 
> Theosophy...
>
> The degree of inner silence and inner peace we 
> have is decisive to define the scope of 
> understanding we have about words and their 
> meanings.
>
>
> Best regards, Carlos.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> C�pia:
>
> Data:Wed, 17 May 2006 17:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Assunto:Re: Theos-World CASS: I GUESS WE AGREE
>
> > 6th. Mediumship is the opposite of adeptship; 
> > the medium is the passive instrument of 
> > foreign influences, the adept actively 
> > controls himself and all inferior potencies. 
> > Isis P588 V2.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Cass
> >
> > carlosaveline wrote: Cass,
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > This time you did not say Socrates lacked 
> > inner connection. Great.
> >
> > I tend to think that the difference between 
> > initiation-affiliation and the eastern sense 
> > of the word is clear.
> >
> > Socrates had a sane, healthy, good inner 
> > connection to the sources of eternal wisdom, 
> > even if unaffilitiated to the "esoteric 
> > schools", or " Mysteries" of his time.
> >
> > Then, as this was the main if not the only 
> > point under evaluation, I guess we agree!
> >
> > With respect and appreciation, Carlos.
> >
> >
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > C�pia:
> >
> > Data:Tue, 16 May 2006 18:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > Assunto:Re: Theos-World TO CASS ON WHAT IS 
> > 'INITIATION"
> >
> > > The fathers had decided to pervert the 
> > > meaning of the word "daimon" *
> > > *"The beings which the philosophers of other 
> > > peoples distinguish by the name "Daemons,' 
> > > Moses names "Angels" says Philo Judaeus - 
> > > "De Gigant," i.253. Isis V2.P34
> > >
> > > "An is a radical, signifying in Sanscrit a 
> > > spirit, a being; and, we presume, what the 
> > > Greeks meant by the word Daemon, a semi-god. 
> > > Isis V2.P257
> > >
> > > "Plato acknowledges man to be the toy of the 
> > > element of necessity, which he enters upon 
> > > in appearing in this world of matter; he is 
> > > influenced by external causes, and these 
> > > causes are "daimonia", like that of 
> > > Socrates. Happy is the man physically pure, 
> > > for if his external soul (body) is pure, it 
> > > will strengthen the second one (astral 
> > > body), or the soul which is termed by him 
> > > the higher mortal soul, which though liable 
> > > to err from its own motives, will always 
> > > side with reason against the animal 
> > > proclivities of the body. The lusts of man 
> > > arise in consequence of his perishable 
> > > material body, so do other diseases,; but 
> > > though he regards crimes as 'involuntary' 
> > > sometimes, for they result like bodily 
> > > disease from external causes, Plato clearly 
> > > makes a wide distinction between these 
> > > causes. The fatalism which he concedes to 
> > > humanity, does not preclude the possibility 
> > > of avoiding them, for though pain, fear, 
> > > anger, and other feelings are given to men 
> > > by necessity, "if they
> > > conquered these they would live righteously, 
> > > and if they were conquered by them, 
> > > unrighteously." The dual man, i.e. one from 
> > > whom the divine immortal spirit has 
> > > departed, leaving but the animal form and 
> > > astral body (Plato's higher mortal soul), is 
> > > left merely to his instincts, for he was 
> > > conquered by all the evils entailed on 
> > > matter; hence, he becomes a docile tool in 
> > > the hands of the invisibles - beings of 
> > > sublimated matter, hovering in our 
> > > atmosphere and ever ready to inspire those 
> > > who are deservedly deserted by their 
> > > immortal counsellor, the Divine Spirit, 
> > > called by Plato "genius". According to this 
> > > great philosopher and initiate, one "who 
> > > lived well during his appointed time would 
> > > return to the habitation of his star, and 
> > > there have a blessed and suitable existence. 
> > > But if he failed in attaining this in the 
> > > second generation he would pass into a 
> > > woman - become helpless and weak as a woman; 
> > > and should he not cease from evil in that 
> > > condition, he would be changed into
> > > some brute, which resembled him in his evil 
> > > ways, and would not cease from his toils and 
> > > transformations until he followed the 
> > > original principle of sameness and likeness 
> > > within him, and overcame, by the help of 
> > > reason, the latter secretions of turbulent 
> > > and irrational elements (elementary daemons) 
> > > composed of fire and air, and water and 
> > > earth, and returned to the form of his first 
> > > and better nature.
> > >
> > > Hope this clarifies it for you
> > >
> > > Cass
> > >
> > > carlosaveline wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > CASS,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your commentaries below.
> > >
> > > 1) HPB never said Socrates was an Initiate 
> > > in the eastern sense of the term.
> > > She said Socrates was NOT an initiated in 
> > > the western, formal, sense of the term, that 
> > > is, he was no AFFILITATED to the current 
> > > Greek "Esoteric Schools" or "Mysteries".
> > >
> > > 2) HPB clarifies in many texts that Socrates 
> > > had an independent, inner, legitimate source 
> > > of inspiraration.
> > >
> > >
> > > 3) It is clear that Socrates "Daimon" was 
> > > his own higher self. "Daimon" is the spirit 
> > > within oneself, as Marcus Aurelius and 
> > > others wrote. Now, Socrates might have other 
> > > inner contacts. The important thing is to 
> > > understand the word "initiate" in its 
> > > various meanings, eastern or western.
> > >
> > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > C�pia:
> > >
> > > Data:Mon, 15 May 2006 19:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > > Assunto:Re: Theos-World SOCRATES & THE 
> > > STARTING POINT
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > carlosaveline wrote:
> > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > Since Socrates of Athens -- Plato's 
> > > > Master -- is a starting point for 
> > > > Philosophy along with Pythagoras, it it 
> > > > worthwhile to take a look on what HPB 
> > > > wrote about him. Three short, but 
> > > > revealing quotations on him and his 
> > > > "divine Daimon", as HPB calls it, are 
> > > > below.
> > > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > > ONE
> > > >
> > > > �Things have strangely altered since the 
> > > > days of antiquity, when the truly wise 
> > > > made it their duty to conceal their 
> > > > knowledge, deeming it too sacred to even 
> > > > mention before the hoi polloi. While the 
> > > > medieval Rosecroix, the true philosopher, 
> > > > keeping old Socrates in mind, repeated 
> > > > daily that all he knew was that the knew 
> > > > nothing, his modern self-styled successor 
> > > > announces in our day, through press and 
> > > > public, that those mysteries in Nature and 
> > > > her Occult laws of which he knows nothing, 
> > > > have never existed at all. There was a 
> > > > time when the acquirement of Divine Wisdom 
> > > > (Sapientia) required the sacrifice and 
> > > > devotion of a man�s whole life. It 
> > > > depended on such tings as the purity of 
> > > > the candidate�s motives; on his 
> > > > fearlessness and independence of spirit; 
> > > > but now, to receive a patent for wisdom 
> > > > and adeptship requires only unblushing 
> > > > impudence.�
> > > >
> > > > (�Collected Writings of H. P. 
> > > > Blavatsky�, TPH, Wheaton, USA, volume 
> > > > XII, 1980, 859 pp., see pp. 314-315.)
> > > >
> > > > oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > > Cass: HPB is referring to Socrates as a 
> > > > Philosopher, which I agree with, and 
> > > > quotes Socrates philosophy as all I know 
> > > > is that I know nothing.
> > > >
> > > > TWO
> > > >
> > > > �From the days of the primitive man 
> > > > described by the first Vedic poet, down to 
> > > > our modern poet, there has not been a 
> > > > philosopher worthy of that name, who did 
> > > > not carry in the silent sanctuary of his 
> > > > heart the grand and mysterious truth. If 
> > > > initiated, he learnt it as a sacred 
> > > > science; if otherwise, then, like Socrates 
> > > > repeating to himself, as well as to his 
> > > > fellow-men, the noble injuction, �O man, 
> > > > know thyself��, he succeeded in 
> > > > recognizing his God within himself.
> > > >
> > > > Cass: Again, she is talking about those 
> > > > that are initiated and is not specifically 
> > > > referring to Socrates as the one 
> > > > initiated.
> > > >
> > > > (�Isis Unveiled�, by H. P. Blavatsky, 
> > > > Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, 
> > > > California, USA, 1988, two volumes, see 
> > > > volume II, p. 318. Reproduced by H.P. 
> > > > Blavatsky in �Collected Writing�, TPH 
> > > > Wheaton, volume XIV, 1985, 733 pp., see p. 
> > > > 48.)
> > > >
> > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > THREE
> > > >
> > > > [For H.P.B., his daimon, spirit, was 
> > > > divine:]
> > > >
> > > > �(...) Nor would Socrates have been put 
> > > > to death, had he kept secret the 
> > > > revelations of his divine daimon. He knew 
> > > > how little his century � save those 
> > > > initiated � would understand his 
> > > > meaning, had he given all he knew about 
> > > > the moon. Thus he limited his statements 
> > > > to an allegory...�
> > > >
> > > > (�Collected Writings of H. P. 
> > > > Blavatsky�, TPH, Wheaton, USA, volume 
> > > > XIV, 1985, 733 pp., see p. 35 , footnote.)
> > > >
> > > > Cass: He was put to death because he 
> > > > revealed that all knowledge that he had 
> > > > came from his divine daimon. She actually 
> > > > says, "he knew HOW LITTLE, OTHER THAN AN 
> > > > INITIATE WOULD UNDERSTAND HIS MEANING, 
> > > > THEREFORE IT WAS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. 
> > > > AS THERE IS NO POINT IN PREACHING TO THOSE 
> > > > IN THE KNOW, AND WORSE STILL BREAKING THE 
> > > > LAW OF SILENCE.
> > > >
> > > > CASS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have 
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> > > >
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