Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00489)

Cass,

I guess you accept that Ideals are important.

I only questioned your previously saying ideals "never lead to truth".

Regards,  Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Fri, 12 May 2006 19:12:31 -0700 (PDT)

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World CASS THE ADEPT?

> I will answer this by saying that when it comes to the metaphysical I agree with Plato's definition 
> Plato 
> Main article: Platonic idealism Plato proposed an idealist theory as a solution to the problem of universals. A universal is that which all things share in virtue of having some particular property. So for example the wall, the moon and a blank sheet of paper are all white; white is the universal that all white things share. Plato argued that it is universals, The Forms, or Platonic Ideals that are real, not specific individual things. Confusingly, because this idea asserts that these mental entities are real, it is also called Platonic realism; in this sense realism contrasts with nominalism, the notion that mental abstractions are merely names without an independent existence. Nevertheless, it is a form of idealism because it asserts the primacy of the idea of universals over material things.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to the physical, the ordinary man as an Idealist, I would say that these types of personalities are driven by their own ideas, their own ideals, Hitler, etc and are very dangerous types as they believe in the perfection and absolute correctness of their vision, which provides the moral dictum to do whatever is necessary to reinforce the ideal, e.g. early christianity, the use of killing in the name of god, etc.
> 
> Summary of Idealists
> 
> Make sense of the world using inner values
> Focus on personal growth and the growth of others
> Think of themselves as bright, forgiving and curious
> May sometimes appear stubborn
> More about Idealists
> Idealists put time and energy into developing personal values that they use as a guide through life. They may seek fulfilment by helping others improve themselves and often want to make the world a better place. Idealists only share their inner values with people they respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idealists are the most likely group to say they are vegetarian, according to a UK survey.
> 
> 
> 
> Idealists enjoy discussions about a wide range of topics, particularly those that deal with the future. They are typically easy-going and flexible, but if their values are challenged they may refuse to compromise.
> In situations where they can't use their talents or are unappreciated, Idealists may have trouble expressing themselves and withdraw. Under extreme stress, Idealists may become very critical of others, or lose confidence in their own ability to cope.
> Recognition for their work is important to Idealists; however, they are also good at spotting false praise.
> Idealist Careers
> Idealists are often drawn to jobs where they can help people reach their potential. They are also attracted to careers that allow artistic creativity.
> Cheers
> Cass
> carlosaveline wrote: Cass,
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> But, who says ideals NEVER lead to truth? 
> 
> Did you yourself "decree" it? 
> 
> Theosophy recomends the "ideal of human perfection". And so on. 
> 
> Take a look, for instance, in the GOLDEN STAIRS (BCW, vol XII). 
> 
> Have you heard about Plato? Good reading. Plotino, too. 
> 
> 
> Regards, Carlos. 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> C�pia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 11 May 2006 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Theosophy and the U. N.
> 
> > But Carlos, these are "ideals" and "ideals" never lead to the truth.
> > Cass
> > 
> > carlosaveline wrote: 
> > 
> > Sufilight,
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks a lot for your commentaries.
> > 
> > I will tell you what I see in World Goddwil's ideas that is useful.
> > 
> > It is their premises, their starting point: the basic ideas that:
> > 
> > a) the esoteric movement can be conscious of its responsibility with the future of mankind;
> > 
> > b) that the future of m,ankind is bright, in spite of crisis.
> > 
> > It goes implicitly that as esotericists forget about their co-responsibility wirh regard to mankind, they get hypnotized by their own organizational or personal navels, so to say.
> > 
> > But as they emerge from personal mayas and think of mankind, their vision sight gets brighter.
> > 
> > This is the positive contribution I see in Alice Bailey's texts. And perhaps I should mention World Godwill's commitment to universal brotherhood, human rights and the United Nations (as a long-term project). 
> > 
> > As to their precise analysis, everone should make better ones !! 
> > 
> > We should NOT leave themes as the future of mankind to persons like 
> > George Walker or Bin Laden, if you know what I mean. 
> > 
> > Some theosophists are so busy "being" saints, or scholars, that they can't think of anything else. 
> > 
> > I hope I clarified. Goals, premises and principles are of the essence in Occultism. 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > C�pia:
> > 
> > Data:Wed, 10 May 2006 23:10:42 +0200
> > 
> > Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Sufilight, Hitler and the U.N.
> > 
> > > Hallo Carlos and all,
> > > 
> > > My views are:
> > > 
> > > Allright I will write a more detailed e-mail.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 1. The Newsletter by the Arcane Group.
> > > 
> > > Carlos wrote:
> > > "I got your suggestion and took a look at World Goodwill/Arcane School text, 
> > > but failed to see your point. "
> > > 
> > > This is the newsletter:
> > > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/index.shtml
> > > 
> > > a) First example.
> > > Let me quote the following from the text of the newsletter:
> > > "We did not rush blindly into war; instead it was considered deliberately 
> > > and passionately by all the many members of the world community 
> > > demonstrating a noble attempt to solve this problem in a more enlightened 
> > > way. And although we seemingly failed, nonetheless a process was initiated."
> > > 
> > > By using the word "We" and "we", I think the writer and the Arcane group
> > > is way out of line. I wonder why these two sentences was implemented in the 
> > > newsletter?
> > > 
> > > b) Second example:
> > > Also this one from the same newsletter:
> > > "That is not to say that force is never justified for, as we well know, the 
> > > transition period through which we are manoeuvring is fraught with 
> > > tremendous difficulties of which we are all too vividly aware. The terrorist 
> > > threat does not yield to facile or immediate solutions. And as much as we 
> > > might long for the cessation of warfare, due to the dangerous world in which 
> > > we live there are times when it is justified. "
> > > 
> > > We will have to remember the year and day, this newsletter was published.
> > > It was published year 2003 when the war on Iraq was started.
> > > When I read the above quote and consider when it was published, I only find 
> > > it to be a jesuistic justification supporting the invasion of Bhagdad.
> > > Why else implement these sentences in the newsletter?
> > > 
> > > c)
> > > About your refrence to a later newsletter by the Alice A. Bailey's.
> > > Yes. They perhaps read my emails here at theos-talk which I posted earlier 
> > > on in 2003 about these very same issues. And then they realised their 
> > > mistakes.
> > > 
> > > The indefatigable fools at Lucis Trust do not understand, that the world 
> > > needs - firstly to stop this silly idea about nationality, when we talk 
> > > about creating peace on this planet. Secondy, No nation is an island. And 
> > > thirdly, - Dictatorship or non-democratic Priesthood is not an option 
> > > anymore, beacuse people very easily can create a nuclear bomb. The world has 
> > > to mobilise these views. And we can only do our best in this time of hour.
> > > And I do not understand why your below reference should be anything but an 
> > > attempt to simply water down the bad mistakes in the above earlier 
> > > newsletter.
> > > Carlos newsletter reference:
> > > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/2003nl2_p3.shtml
> > > 
> > > I agree, that most Alice A. Bailey followers do mean well, and that is very 
> > > good.
> > > If they just were more motivated to pull that stupid Christian branch out of 
> > > their own eyes, so that they could
> > > see the Middle Eastern part of the planet with the eyes of the Sufis. Oh 
> > > what a waste of Newsmedia-heads!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 2. The Alice A. Bailey texts are a problem today 2006
> > > 
> > > We will have to understand the problems the Alice A. Bailey texts creates 
> > > today in our present informations society of global cultural awareness. It 
> > > is quite important to understand, that only a very few Seekers from the 
> > > Middle East appreciates the books written by Alice A. Bailey, with their 
> > > heavy use of Christian-like vocabulary. To promote such books on the 
> > > Internet are not very helpful in these days with western and Middle Eastern 
> > > tensions.
> > > 
> > > Try this
> > > Alice A. Bailey's: Esoteric Psychology
> > > ********************
> > > "Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other of 
> > > the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray should 
> > > have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard that 
> > > Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray influence; 
> > > we do not know what may have been the religion which was the outcome of the 
> > > last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian and the Zoroastrian 
> > > religions may be taken as representing the third, the fourth, and the fifth 
> > > rays respectively. Christianity and probably Buddhism were the result of 
> > > sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which numbers so large a following, is 
> > > also under sixth ray influence, but it is not a great root religion, being a 
> > > hybrid offshoot of Christianity with the tinge of Judaism."
> > > (Esoteric Psychology vol. 1 - 1936 , page 167)
> > > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/psychology1/psyc1050.html
> > > 
> > > And Alice A. Baileys use of the word "NOT" in the above has been given
> > > (uppercase) emphasis by me !
> > > I somehow fail to understand that such a message could be compassionate 
> > > today year 2006.
> > > 
> > > As long as the Middle East with its rich symbolical and esoterical teachings
> > > are being trampled upon in the name of western prejudice about this 
> > > culture -
> > > by some pet-Bible books of a nature which is swarmed by Christian
> > > vocabulary, (books written by Alice A. Bailey and a supposed 5th initiate),
> > > how can anyone justify such teachings as being valid theosophy and giving
> > > the Seekers after Wisdom and Truth a proper WORLD VIEW ?
> > > The age old Secret Doctrine by Blavatsky is struggleing because it was 
> > > written
> > > with a European audience in mind. - This was somthing one of the
> > > Mahatmas stated in a letter to A. P. Sinnett.
> > > And because it was not written with a more global audience in mind, it is 
> > > beginning
> > > to struggle with time. It is not anymore that adequate a script to use if 
> > > one has a global
> > > adience in mind, and not only an european.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 3. Important knowledge about the Alice A. Bailey books today year 2006.
> > > 
> > > I - The Bailey books are not a balanced multicultural presentation on
> > > Theosophy.
> > > II - The Bailey books have a heavy use of Christian vocabulary.
> > > The bad consequences of this will show itself in the present information
> > > society.
> > > III - The Middle East is hardly mentioned in the books, but the Christian
> > > religion gets a whole lot of coverage.
> > > IV - The books were NOT intended for a Middle Eastern audience. Today
> > > communication is rapid - due to the Internet. The audience is different
> > > today. And the physical world has changed.
> > > V - Bailey groups are connected with work at The United Nations,
> > > Headquarters. Because of that they are politically involved, and that on an
> > > international level.
> > > VI - True theosophical or esoteric teachings are always taking time, place, 
> > > people,
> > > circumstances, teacher and audience into account. The Alice A. Bailey books 
> > > are
> > > dangerous and irrelevant to a global audience on the Internet.
> > > VII -This is today some of the problems the books of Bailey creates in 
> > > TODAYS
> > > international information society, where there are clearly visible
> > > political tensions between the Western politicians and The Middle Eastern 
> > > ones."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 4. About Bailey and World War II.
> > > Ok. Your point is taken to heart. But nevertheless...
> > > 
> > > I would be hesitate about stating that Alice A. Bailey was clearly anti 
> > > Hitler in her books. Some of the earliere books by Bailey, have their 
> > > content heavily marked by Hitler's influence upon the world. In her later 
> > > books she was anti-Hitler, Yes I agree. And when viewing all her books - all 
> > > in all - I would say, that she was clearly not 100% anti-Hitler.
> > > Try to read Alice A. Bailey's: Esoteric Psychology vol. I. In it you will 
> > > find references to the jews forwarded in a manner, which are not taking the 
> > > jew racism theories of Hitler into account, they rather support them between 
> > > the lines. This book was published in 1936 ! Only 3 years
> > > before that, Hitler was named Reich Chancellor of Germany. His racism-like 
> > > politics was already leaning on Christianity, which he and his friends later
> > > rejected. And remember - that the atmosphere of racism was growing in EU and 
> > > even in USA near the years 1933-36. This should at least tell you something. 
> > > When Hitler later on got too ugly to the Alice A. Bailey taste and mindset, 
> > > she wrote differently and clearly stated her views about this facist. 
> > > However, a beginner Seeker or a scholar might get confused while reading the 
> > > below quotes.
> > > 
> > > The chronology of the creation of the books at least gives one good reason 
> > > to adopt this impression. And because of this - the book or books which were 
> > > available in 1936 had great possibilities of being misunderstood. We are at 
> > > least talking about the years 1936-1942 as being problematic. Even the book 
> > > White Magic (1934) contains faults, something Alice A. Bailey later admitted 
> > > in her book Esoteric Healing.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > A quote about the Shamballa force:
> > > "In the second group of changing ideologies and of reaction to mass need, 
> > > you will find France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal, all of whom have 
> > > altered their ancient policies, changed their forms of government and 
> > > reacted gradually and slowly to the Shamballa force. They have, however, 
> > > reacted to that force through the medium of certain great and outstanding 
> > > personalities who were peculiarly sensitive to the will-to-power and the 
> > > will-to-change and who (during the past 150 years) have altered the 
> > > character of their national life, and emphasized increasingly the wider 
> > > human values. The men who inspired the initiating French revolution; the 
> > > great conqueror, Napoleon; Bismarck, the creator of a nation; Mussolini, the 
> > > regenerator of his people; Hitler who lifted a distressed people upon his 
> > > shoulders; Lenin, the idealist, Stalin and Franco are all expressions of the 
> > > Shamballa force and of certain little understood energies. These have 
> > > wrought significant changes in their day and generation and altered the face 
> > > of Europe, incidentally affecting Asia and conditioning attitudes and 
> > > policies in America."
> > > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/externalisation/exte1054.html
> > > (The Externalization of the Hierarchy - 1947/1957, page 133)
> > > 
> > > The Jews in 1936:
> > > "In connection with the nations and the rays I want now to indicate to you 
> > > certain fundamental conditions which partially account for the (so-called) 
> > > Jewish problem, - a problem which has existed for centuries, and which is, 
> > > at this time, causing the deepest possible concern to many, including 
> > > members of the planetary Hierarchy. If this problem can be solved, it will 
> > > be one of the potent factors in the restoration of world understanding and 
> > > harmony."
> > > ... and ...reading further...
> > > "
> > > 1.. The Semitic race or races of Biblical and modern times; the Arabs, the 
> > > Afghans, the Moors and the offshoots and affiliations of those peoples, 
> > > including the modern Egyptians. These are all descended from the eldest of 
> > > the three disciples.
> > > 2.. The Latin peoples and their various branches throughout the world, and 
> > > also the Celtic races wherever found. These are descended from the second of 
> > > the three disciples.
> > > 3.. The Teutons, the Scandinavians, and the Anglo-Saxons, who are the 
> > > descendants of the third of the three disciples."
> > > (Esoteric Psychology vol. 1 - 1936 , page 394-5)
> > > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/psychology1/psyc1121.html
> > > 
> > > The Jews in 1947:
> > > "Let us look for a moment at the situation of the Jews, prior to the bitter 
> > > and unpardonable attack made upon them by Hitler and prior to the war 
> > > 1939-1945. They were to be found in every land and claimed citizenship in 
> > > every country; within the nation of their birth, they preserved intact their 
> > > own racial identity, their own peculiar way of life, their own national 
> > > religion (which is everybody's privilege) and a close adherence to those of 
> > > their own race. Other groups have done this but to a much lesser degree and 
> > > have been eventually absorbed and assimilated by the land of their 
> > > citizenship. The Jews have always constituted a nation within a nation, 
> > > though this has been less marked in Great Britain, Holland, France and Italy 
> > > than elsewhere, and therefore, in none of these countries has there been any 
> > > strong anti-Semitic feeling."
> > > (Problems of Humanity - 1947, page 96)
> > > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/problems/prob1042.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The stimulation of dictators:
> > > "The force pouring through Darjeeling at this time is that of the first Ray 
> > > of Will or Power. The soul ray of India is the first ray and hence the 
> > > immediate effect of the inpouring Shamballa force is to stimulate the 
> > > will-to-power of all dictators, whether they are the would-be world 
> > > dictators such as Hitler and his group of evil men, ecclesiastical dictators 
> > > in any religion, business dictators in any business group in any part of the 
> > > world, or those minor dictators, the tyrants in the home."
> > > (The Destiny of the Nations - 1949, page 98)
> > > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/destiny/dest1045.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I hold it to be true, that the quotes from the Alice A. Bailey books in the 
> > > above tell their own tale about, what theosophical beginner Seekers and 
> > > Scholars of various religious backgrounds are being offered on the Internet 
> > > today year 2006.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 5. So very important: The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN
> > > MATERIAL of ALL sorts is to shape a man and woman, and their 
> > > thought-patterns,
> > > not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one 
> > > way in
> > > which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of 
> > > ideas and movements
> > > - LIKE FOR INSTANCE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY or a ALICE A. BAILEY GROUP.
> > > This seems important to understand and know about.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > from
> > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...and feeling like the ugly duckling...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "carlosaveline" 
> > > To: "theos-talk" 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:31 PM
> > > Subject: Theos-World Sufilight, Hitler and the U.N.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sufilight, Friends,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for your commentaries.
> > > 
> > > We all must be careful in the search for truth.
> > > 
> > > I got your suggestion and took a look at World Goodwill/Arcane School text, 
> > > but failed to see your point.
> > > 
> > > My own point is that Alice Bailey was and her followers are pro-democracy 
> > > and anti-Hitler. I understand this is a fact.
> > > 
> > > As to an assessment of Alice Bailey's work from an occult and esoteric view, 
> > > well, that is another issue. I have read the various critical studies 
> > > extant -- Victor Endersby, Alice Cleather and so on. But this was not my 
> > > point. If we were to examine some of the occult views present in A. Bailey's 
> > > books, it should be made with care, calm, and in a documented way.
> > > 
> > > My point was limited to Hitler and the II World War, and to democracies x 
> > > Nazi-Fascism with regard to theosophists, OK?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As to the positive side of World Goodwill/Arcane School, I guess they got 
> > > the long term importance of the United Nations. They are helping the birth 
> > > of a planetary citizenship. Which is an essential task. Planetary 
> > > citizenship is an aspect of universal brotherhood.
> > > 
> > > The theosophical movement should be able to provide other steps in the 
> > > awakening we are living.
> > > 
> > > Do we feel co-responsible for humanity's next steps?
> > > 
> > > The co-responsibility exists. Are we conscious of it?
> > > 
> > > Best regards, Carlos.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > C�pia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Mon, 8 May 2006 18:58:26 +0200
> > > 
> > > Assunto:Re: Theos-World A. HITLER AND THE MOVEMENT
> > > 
> > > > Hallo Carlos and all,
> > > >
> > > > My views are:
> > > >
> > > > I am a sort of careful creature.
> > > >
> > > > Carlos wrote:
> > > > "Considering the facts mentioned above, it is not difficult to arrive to 
> > > > at
> > > > least one conclusion. Whatever criticisms one may have with regard to this
> > > > or that theosophical organization, it is a simple matter of common sense 
> > > > to
> > > > admit that all of the movement is naturally and intrinsically in favour of
> > > > liberty and democracy, and against any disrespect for human life. The
> > > > movement has an inherent tendency towards universal brotherhood."
> > > >
> > > > To me this is a questionable conclusion when we talk about the Alice A.
> > > > Bailey's of today, or shall we say yesterday.
> > > > Try for instance to read the following link from their website. It was
> > > > written when the bombs started flying around in Bhagdad:
> > > > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/index.shtml (May 2003)
> > > >
> > > > I do not find the Arcane group that peaceful in the direction mentioned in
> > > > the above conclusion Carlos emailed. No certainly not!
> > > > The content of that newletter smells just way too much of Jesuitism.
> > > > Others, especially those not interested in the problems of Jesuitsm, will 
> > > > of
> > > > course disagree.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > from
> > > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "carlosaveline"
> > > > To: "theos-talk"
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 2:49 PM
> > > > Subject: Theos-World A. HITLER AND THE MOVEMENT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NAZISM, FASCISM AND THE THEOSOPHICAL
> > > > MOVEMENT DURING THE WORLD WAR II
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > >
> > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > > Dear Friends,
> > > >
> > > > A new book -- "Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement With the
> > > > Occult", by Peter Levenda -- accuses the theosophical movement of having
> 
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