Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00083)

Frank,

I don't believe Daniel warrants any defence in this case.  Carlos is
simply mirroring Daniels' behavior.  Daniel knows this and will not
defend himself on principle because if he does he will be admitting his
own guilt with respect to HPB and Judge.  Because of this Daniel will
simply try to mock and chide Carlos into silence, hoping others will
come to his aid with more principled arguments.

Daniel uses the work of the Coulombs and Solovyoff when editing or
assisting in the editing of collections of material on HPB.  In "The
Letters" we find HPB detailing a sexually promiscuous youth and the
torturing of a cat to death.   Daniel quite reasonably states that he
does not necessarily believe this "evidence" but, until it is proved
false, neither does he think it should be hidden away and forgotten.

Carlos looks at the evidence that Paul Johnson has brought forward. 
That evidence implies that Daniel may have created false personas in
order to more easily attack theosophical personalities and the ULT. 
Carlos says he does not necessarily believe that evidence, but until
things are cleared up one way or another, neither should it be
forgotten.

Daniel has done much work of value putting together a comprehensive
archive on theosophical material.  This can help both enemies and
friends of theosophy depending on how that archive is used.  Daniel has
stated that he has never felt compelled to seek out other theosophists
as collegues.  This implies that the intuition of brotherhood does not
appeal strongly to him.  He must therefore be interested in HPB and her
history for other  reasons.  I think in the end, Carlos is simply trying
to point out to Daniel that you cannot do justice to HPB if you do not
make an attempt to understand Universal Brotherhood.  In any case, I am
not certain Daniel wants you arguing too strongly that it is wrong to
continue repeating unproven allegations as it puts him in a difficult
position.

Bruce

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" <carlosaveline@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Frank,
>
> I am not discussing anyone's motives.
>
> But hope Daniel Caldwell and John Algeo will stop slandering HPB.
>
> They know the slanders they circulate are criminal lies, don't they?
>
> They are taking advantage of the fact that HPB is not alive now.
Soloviof did the same.
>
> Algeo followed Daniel's  example in that.
>
> As to Daniel's sowing dissent among theosophists, the important thing
to have in mind is that, in spite of all differences, Theosophy, which
theosophists have in common, is much greater than their differences. The
reason for showing Leadbeater for what he is is not strruggle for power
-- the aim is to help the movement get rid of Leadbeater's illusions.
>
> As to Paul Johnson's  charges that Daniel is a "troller" using false
names in the internet, Daniel never denied he "nvented false characters
like "David Green" and others.  When  Johnson produced his texts about
this here, Daniel immediately -- VANISHED for more than one month. 
Significant, Frank. Significant.
>
> Yet I have come to no conclusions and still wait for clarifications.
Perhaps "David Green" will clarify.  You know the right to defend
oneself is a sacred thing and I respect that.
>
> Best regards,  Carlos.
>
>
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>
> Cópia:
>
> Data:Wed, 3 May 2006 08:11:55 +0200
>
> Assunto:Re: Theos-World Re: CALDWELL & JESUITS
>
> > Carlos,
> > I was responding to your argument, that Daniel
> > produces hate, is lying and slanders in a jesuitic
> > way etc., while I observed that his motive is to
> > find out the truth and share his knowledge with
> > others.
> > My other point was that you force Daneil to proof
> > that he is innocent, while I would rather say
> > that it's up to you, that he guilty.
> > Here you are ironically using the same logic as
> > Annie Besant did in the so-called Judge case.
> >
> > And as to your new argument below, that Daniel is
> > using details to exaggerate differences, the same
> > could be said from you, although I never observed
> > that he exaggerates differences, but rather breaks
> > taboos, clearifies differences in the way that he
> > considers both sides.
> > If any theosophical student feels discriminated by
> > logic, argument, clear sources etc. that it is not
> > the fault of Daniel or any other student, but the
> > fault of that Theosophist who sticks on his/her
> > little personality.
> >
> > You get no unity between theosophists with errors,
> > falsehoods or lies as its basic. Then you a
> > church. And stop thinking is really the Jesuitical
> > way.
> >
> > I find that your argument that Daniel deals with
> > differences between leading personalities it
> > wrong. He deals more with the differences between
> > the presentation and interpretation of facts or
> > alleged facts.
> > That is really theosophical. HPB did exactly the
> > same. OTOH, an observer could with the same or
> > more right sqay, that it is rather you and not
> > Daniel, who deals with personalities.
> >
> > Often you are attacking him personally and ignore
> > his argument instead the other way round.
> >
> > One example that Daniel is a honest researcher is
> > that he once made the little mistake in publishing
> > on his website my name with a paraphrase of mine.
> > I critizied it, because I could not identify
> > myself with it and found it misleading and I
> > begged him to drop my name. He then in return did
> > it. Why did he do it??
> >
> > Furthermore there are many myths the ULT has
> > created and upholds them until today. ULT
> > publishes falsehoods about Purucker and Tingley.
> > Not the person who quotes these ULT texts is
> > guilty, but the persons who wrote and spread these
> > falsehoods.
> >
> > To use an example: If someone robbs a bank, runs
> > out and a policeman runs after him to catch him,
> > would you also say, the policeman uses Jeusitical
> > methods, deals with the personality, breaks the
> > harmony and acts unbrotherly?
> > Frank
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "carlosaveline"
> > To: "theos-talk"
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 9:45 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: CALDWELL & JESUITS
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank, Friends,
> >
> > Look at the way Caldwell constantly uses small
> > details to exaggerate
> > differences between leading PERSONALITIES
> > belonging to different
> > theosophical groups.
> >
> > Daniel, unfortunately, rotates too much around
> > personalities. I am inviting him to see the unity
> > of the movement; to get rid ot fancies and false
> > initiates like Leadbeater (Daniel already likes
> > Tillett's book on Leadbeater...); and to help the
> > movement take its next step -- to care for mankind
> > and to study real Theosophy and its application in
> > daily life.
> >
> > I invite Daniel to stop circulating the old
> > slandes which he knows all too well to be pure
> > lies.
> >
> > I hope I clarified my point. I feel the same with
> > regard to Paul Johnson, Katinka Hesselink, John
> > Algeo and others who propagate falsehoods.
> >
> > I acknowledge the fact that historians like
> > Michael Gomes and Leslie Price are NOT in the
> > business ofcirculating lies against W.Q. Judge or
> > H. P. Blavatsky.
> >
> > Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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