Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00386)

You should quote Jerome Wheeler's article properly,  if you are so impresse=
d by it.

I really cannot remember him making any direct accusations like that.

As to me, I do not understand you agenda.=20

Why are you publicizing Leadbeater's books after accepting he was a crimina=
l child-abuser?

Perhaps you can explain that.=20=20

Best regards,   Carlos.=20





De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

C=F3pia:

Data:Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:04:15 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: Paul Johnson & Daniel Caldwell

> Carlos,
>=20
> As I said months ago on Theos-Talk, you can
> believe anything Paul asserts.
>=20
> You can believe whatever you want about me,
> more power to you.
>=20
> Jerome Wheeler in his wonderful article
> in a past issue of FOHAT basically said I was
> a dugpa or a tool of the dark forces, so anything
> Paul or you might add is sorta trifling.=20
>=20
> OBTW I think Robert as editor is
> to be commended for allowing such a theosophically based
> article to appear in FOHAT.
>=20
> I mean it is an honor to be in a league of my own. W.Q. Judge only
> accused Besant and Chakravarti of being unconscious tools of=20
> the dugpas and Brothers of the Shadow. Jerome in his article seemed=20
> to be saying I was a conscious agent or maybe a veritable dugpa=20
> myself. Of course Jerome must be in the "know" since he writes all=20
> of this.....
>=20
> When I first criticized Paul's books years ago, he
> saw fit to psychoanalyze me and assign various motives
> to me. It's called ad hominem argument. DISTRACT FROM THE
> HISTORICAL ISSUES BY SIDETRACKING THE DISCUSSION.
>=20
> It was a nice piece of fantasy fiction. I think
> at that time he said I was a heretic slayer doing the
> bidding of the various theosophical organizations to
> slay various "heresies" like Paul's own heresy. Such=20
> a fertile imagination I must say!=20
>=20
> When I published Margaret Thomas' book on my website a number
> of Adyar students wrote me saying I was being influenced by
> "dugpas" to destroy the Theosophical Movement. Then dear
> Jerome added his wonderful version!
>=20
> Believe what you want about me, and try to make others believe it...
> yea maybe I am one "bad ******** *********." Watch out Chuck!
>=20
> Actually it's fun and I can see why Chuck relishes his role
> here on Theos-Talk.
>=20
> But I will confine my comments to Blavatsky & Theosophy and the=20
> history of the Theosophical movement. And from time to time (when I=20
> have the time) I will comment on various topics brought up on Theos-
> talk about Blavatsky and Theosophy.
>=20
> And if I vanish from time to time on Theos-Talk don't worry Carlos I=20
> will be back. It is because I am working on 7 different book=20
> projects at the same time including the sequel to Walter's OBITUARY=20
> book and another book in which I give more newly discovered Mahatma=20
> letters from KH and M with colored facsimiles, etc. These letters=20
> date to the 1880s, by the way. Also I'm working on a sourcebook on=20
> the Bardo, life after death, etc.
>=20
> But I will dip in from time to time on Theos-Talk to read the=20
> postings and possibly answer some (yours included.)
>=20
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
>=20
> P.S. I have had this urging for some time to start signing my name=20
> as Daniel W.A.L. Caldwell
>=20
> W.A.L. =3D "We are legion...." :) it would fit in with your own=20
> fantasies quite well.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Friends,=20
> >=20
> > And then you have Paul Johnson with his brilliant "theories"=20
> against the theosophical movement.=20
> >=20
> > Strangely enough, last February Paul Johnson denounced Daniel=20
> Caldwell at Theos-talk as a "troller" who invented several aliases=20
> or "internet-personifications" in order to attack the ULT, to attack=20
> Paul himself, etc. Once Johnson made his points with regard to=20
> Daniel, our slanders-editor diesappeared from Theos-talk with no=20
> explanations. Or at least spent some time writing here under other=20
> names.=20
> >=20
> > I am still waiting for Daniel's answer to the texts by Paul=20
> Johnson on him.
> > This is rather important. In case Daniel actually forged the=20
> existence of persons like "David Green", or "Terry Hobbes", etc.=20
> (which he did not deny so far), he might also be inclined to make=20
> propaganda of other forgers, like Sololoviof, etc.=20
> >=20
> > After all, if that is true, the Coulombs and Soloviof could be=20
> considered his 19th century coleagues.=20
> >=20
> > As we know, Ethics is of the essence if anyone wants to study=20
> Theosophy.=20
> >=20
> > I hope Daniel will answer to Paul Johnson's accusations of=20
> internet-fraud, and I also hope he will abandon his propaganda about=20
> the falsehoods created by the enemies of the theosophical movement,=20
> who seems to have no respect for facts.=20
> >=20
> > Best regards, Carlos=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >=20
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >=20
> > C=F3pia:
> >=20
> > Data:Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:54:24 -0000
> >=20
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Part 2: Compare and contrast the=20
> Coulomb Testimony with other testimony:
> >=20
> > > Bill,
> > >=20
> > > Yes I agree with everything (or almost everything you write!).
> > >=20
> > > I was not trying to do a definitive analysis but simply
> > > wanted to roughly indicate what this comparing and contrasting
> > > could be.
> > >=20
> > > I will just comment on just one thing you write since I don't=20
> have=20
> > > the time right now to do more:
> > >=20
> > > "There is surely more than one way to fake the appearance of a=20
> > > master."
> > >=20
> > > Yes surely I agree but hopefully you are not automatically=20
> saying=20
> > > that all appearances were therefore faked. Are we open to the=20
> > > possibility that the appearances were actually genuine? etc. etc.
> > >=20
> > > Thanks for your comments.
> > >=20
> > > Daniel
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bill Meredith=20
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Daniel, In the first testimony Coulomb does not say that the=20
> > > master=20
> > > > reported to have been seen by Olcott in the second testimony=20
> was=20
> > > either=20
> > > > Monseiur Coulomb in disguise or the sewn and stuffed head. You=20
> > > appear to=20
> > > > be comparing and contrasting apples and oranges, so to speak.=20
> > > Your=20
> > > > analysis has relevance in that both testimonies are about the=20
> > > > "appearance" of a master, however it lacks decisive=20
> significance=20
> > > in that=20
> > > > each testimony is about a different "appearance" at a=20
> different=20
> > > time, in=20
> > > > a different place, and witnessed by different people.=20
> > > >=20
> > > > As I understand them, both of the testimonies you present=20
> below=20
> > > could=20
> > > > be true. Both could be false. One could be true and the other=20
> > > false.=20
> > > > They do not address the same encounter of a master and=20
> therefore a=20
> > > > contrast and comparison of the details is limited to=20
> generalities=20
> > > at=20
> > > > best. None of the details of one testimony precludes the=20
> details=20
> > > of=20
> > > > the other testimony from being true at a different time,=20
> place,=20
> > > and=20
> > > > audience. Nor do any of the details from one testimony=20
> preclude=20
> > > the=20
> > > > details of the other testimony from being false at a different=20
> > > time,=20
> > > > place, and audience. There is surely more than one way to fake=20
> > > the=20
> > > > appearance of a master.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > peace within,
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > bill
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > danielhcaldwell wrote:
> > > > > Let us continue with another simple comparing and=20
> contrasting.
> > > > >
> > > > > First, I give below Emma Coulomb's basic explanation for the
> > > > > appearances of the Masters:
> > > > >
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > Later] in one of [her good] moods [Madame Blavatsky] called=20
> me=20
> > > up=20
> > > > > and told me: "See if you can make a head of human size and=20
> > > place=20
> > > > > it on that divan," pointing to a sofa in her room, " and=20
> merely=20
> > > put=20
> > > > > a sheet round it; it would have a magic effect by=20
> moonlight."=20
> > > What=20
> > > > > can this mean? I wondered. But knowing how disagreeable she=20
> > > could=20
> > > > > make herself if she was stroked on the wrong side, I=20
> complied=20
> > > with=20
> > > > > her wish. She cut a paper pattern of the face I was to make,=20
> > > which=20
> > > > > I still have; on this I cut the precious lineaments of the=20
> > > beloved=20
> > > > > Master, but, to my shame, I must say that, after all my=20
> trouble=20
> > > of=20
> > > > > cutting, sewing, and stuffing, Madame said that it looked=20
> like=20
> > > an=20
> > > > > old Jew---I suppose she meant Shylock. Madame, with a=20
> graceful=20
> > > > > touch here and there of her painting brush, gave it a little=20
> > > better=20
> > > > > appearance. But this was only a head, without bust, and=20
> could=20
> > > not=20
> > > > > very well be used, so I made a jacket, which I doubled, and=20
> > > between=20
> > > > > the two cloths I placed stuffing, to form the shoulders and=20
> > > chest;=20
> > > > > the arms were only to the elbow, because, when the thing was=20
> > > tried=20
> > > > > on, we found the long arm would be in the way of him who had=20
> to=20
> > > > > carry it. This beauty finished, made Madame quite another=20
> > > person.=20
> > > > >
> > > > > Let us see for what purpose the doll was made. This was to=20
> give=20
> > > a=20
> > > > > convincing and material proof of the existence of the=20
> brothers=20
> > > [the=20
> > > > > Mahatmas], as their (said) invisible presence did not fully=20
> > > satisfy=20
> > > > > the truthseekers.=20
> > > > >
> > > > > Among the many apparitions to which this doll has been=20
> > > instrumental,=20
> > > > > I will choose one seen by Mr. Ramaswamier, in December,=20
> 1881.=20
> > > The=20
> > > > > Mahatma he saw in his astral body on the balcony at the head-
> > > > > quarters of the Theosophical Society in Bombay, on the=20
> memorable=20
> > > > > night of December, 1881, was no one else than Monsieur=20
> Coulomb,=20
> > > with=20
> > > > > the doll's head on his own.=20
> > > > >
> > > > > The doll plays the greatest part in these apparitions, and,=20
> as I=20
> > > > > have already explained, it is carried on somebody's head;=20
> but at=20
> > > > > times it is placed on the top of a long bamboo, and raised=20
> to=20
> > > show=20
> > > > > that it is an astral body; but when the doll has not been at=20
> > > hand,=20
> > > > > even a white cloth wrapped round the person who was to=20
> perform=20
> > > the=20
> > > > > Mahatma was at times used, and answered the purpose.=20
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > >
> > > > > Now from Hodgson's account, he writes also about=20
> this "dummie"=20
> > > head:
> > > > >
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > I was left without any doubt that the appearances [of the=20
> > > Mahatmas]=20
> > > > > might have been well produced by [Monsieur] Coulomb in=20
> > > disguise. I=20
> > > > > have seen [Monsieur] Coulomb disguised as a Mahatma, and can=20
> > > > > understand that the figure may have been very impressive. A=20
> > > dummy=20
> > > > > head (with shoulders), like that of a Hindu, with beard, &c.=20
> and=20
> > > > > fehta [turban], is worn on the top of the head of the person=20
> > > > > disguised. A long flowing muslin garment falls down in=20
> front,=20
> > > and=20
> > > > > by holding the folds very slightly apart, the wearer is=20
> enabled=20
> > > to=20
> > > > > see, and to speak also, if necessary. I do not think it in=20
> the=20
> > > > > least degree likely that any of the witnesses would have=20
> > > penetrated=20
> > > > > this disguise had the figure been even much nearer than it=20
> was,=20
> > > and=20
> > > > > the light much better.=20
> > > > >
> > > > > I cannot regard Colonel Olcott's testimony as of any=20
> scientific=20
> > > > > value. In particular, his testimony to the alleged "astral"=20
> > > > > appearance [of the Mahatma Morya] in New York proves, in my=20
> > > opinion,=20
> > > > > no more than that he saw someone in his room, who may have=20
> been=20
> > > an=20
> > > > > ordinary Hindu, or some other person, disguised, as a=20
> Mahatma=20
> > > for=20
> > > > > the purpose, and acting for Madame Blavatsky. And the same=20
> may=20
> > > be=20
> > > > > said of all his testimony to apparitions of Mahatmas.=20
> > > > >
> > > > > I need not here say much on the other alleged appearances of=20
> > > > > Mahatmas, in either their ordinary physical or=20
> their "astral"=20
> > > > > bodies. A confederate in disguise is generally an easy and=20
> > > > > sufficient explanation of them.=20
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > >
> > > > > Now contrast and compare his explanations with Colonel=20
> Olcott's
> > > > > testimony some of which can be found at:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/olcottandmahatmas.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > And to be more specific, see this account by Olcott:
> > > > >
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > ....On the evening of 4th August [1880], a Mahatma [Master=20
> > > Morya]=20
> > > > > visited HPB, and I was called in to see him before he left.=20
> He=20
> > > > > dictated a long and important letter to an influential=20
> friend of=20
> > > > > ours at Paris, and gave me important hints about the=20
> management=20
> > > of=20
> > > > > current [Theosophical] Society affairs.=20
> > > > > I was sent away before his visit terminated, and as I left=20
> him=20
> > > > > sitting in HPB's room, I cannot say whether his departure=20
> was a=20
> > > > > phenomenal disappearance or not....
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > >
> > > > > Now are we to suppose that this Mahatma was Mon. Coulomb with
> > > > > dummmie on head?
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember Hodgson said:
> > > > >
> > > > >=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > A long flowing muslin garment falls down in front, and by=20
> > > holding=20
> > > > > the folds very slightly apart, the wearer is enabled to see,=20
> and=20
> > > to=20
> > > > > speak also, if necessary. I do not think it in the least=20
> degree=20
> > > > > likely that any of the witnesses would have penetrated this=20
> > > disguise=20
> > > > > had the figure been even much nearer than it was, and the=20
> light=20
> > > much=20
> > > > > better.=20
> > > > >=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember the dummie had fake eyes, the mouth would not move=20
> when=20
> > > the
> > > > > "dummie" talked.....etc. etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Would Olcott see the obvious especially when he was in the=20
> same
> > > > > room carrying on a conversation with the Mahatma?
> > > > >
> > > > > Many other observations and points could be made simply by
> > > > > contrasting and comparing Coulomb's and Hodgson's account=20
> with=20
> > > > > Olcott's firsthand testimony not to mention the testimony of=20
> > > other=20
> > > > > witnesses.
> > > > >
> > > > > etc. etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >=20
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
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> Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
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