Socrates & Diogenes Were Beyond Outer Initiations
Apr 05, 2006 06:03 AM
by carlosaveline cardoso aveline
Cass,
Yes. Corporate initiation is not the crux of the matter.
That is the point the Roman thinker and emperor Julian makes in his Oration
VII , as he writes about Diogenes, the Cynic.
That is the point which Bennet's lay discipleship illustrates in the 19th
century. So Socrates did not need to be formally initiated in the Mysteries
of his time to get in touch with the real Mysteries at the inner level.
The question is important and complex. Esoteric schools or "Mystery
Schools" are probationary grounds. The point here is just that these
School, though they are important, are not the only means of connection.
Socrates being "not an initiate" does not mean he was not a great helper of
mankind, and it does not mean he did not have deep, powerful insights. He
did. He was above that formal and local initiation, as Julian writes of
Diogenes, and as soon as I have some free time I will bring the reference
and quotation here ir order to clarify.
It it important that we work with existing organizations, yet it is equally
important that we understand we shold not be dependent on them in our
fundamental search for truth.
Best regards, Carlos.
From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Socrates Need OUTER Initiation?
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
Carlos you wrote,
It is the same as to say that some present-day Lay Chelas may not be
members
of any Esoteric School or even may be not members of the Theosophical
Movement.
Ans: I do not believe that it is necessary to belong to any esoteric school
or be a member of the TS.
The knowledge will come to those that have earned it.
Cass
carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote:
Cass,
Thanks.
You say:
"It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are 'beyond initiation'."
Please pay attention, my dear Cass.
Beyond initiation in the conventional, formal Mysteries of his own time
and
place.
It is the same as to say that some present-day Lay Chelas may not be
members
of any Esoteric School or even may be not members of the Theosophical
Movement.
Such was the well-known case of D. M. Bennet in the 19th century. He did
not
even believe in the Master's existence, yet he was a lay chela. TaKe a look
at the Mahatma Letters.
Best regards, Carlos.
>From: Cass Silva
>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Socrates Need Outer Initiation?
>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Hello Carlos
>It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are "beyond initiation".
>HPB tells us that she was a Chela and as such was the voice of the
masters.
> My reading of Julian is that he was initiated.
>
>My understanding of initiation is that the neophyte must first master
>himself, become a centre of honesty, truthfullness and compassionate
>before he is given the keys to the mysteries of life. That is knowledge
of
>our true existence, knowledge of all the planes in nature, knowledge of
our
>universe,etc. If this knowledge was given to one who was not fully in
>control of self (i.e. Socrates daimon) he could not be trusted not to
>misuse his powers, even to the point of providing information beyond his
>own comprehension as was the case again of Socrates.
>
>"All initiation is really a test or trial, but the preparation for that
>test or trial is daily life....What we call Initiation is simply the
>showing by the neophyte in the tests and there laid upon him, whether his
>daily life's training has been sufficiently strong to make him fit to
hitch
>his chariot to the stars."
>
>"The tests are these: Can you face the denizens of other planes and
prevail
>with them in peace? Do you know what that means? Are you absolutely
sure
>of yourself? The man who cannot even face himself and conquer himself
when
>required on this familiar plane where he lives, how can be expect to face
>with safety the habitants of other planes, not only the elementals - they
>are not by any means the worst - but the intelligent creatures, beings,
>living on other planes?
>
>
>"Now then, anyone who has mastered himself, perhaps not completely, but
who
>knows that if he sets his will to it he can control anything in his own
>character, and knows it by proving it, is ready to go through initiation.
>When this knowledge comes to him then he is given the chance. So many
>people seem to think that Initiations are privileges granted to people
who
>pretend to live the holy life and that kind of thing, but I will tell you
>something more that I myself know because I have seen it in my fellow
human
>beings: there is more chance for the man or the woman who has striven
>honestly and has fallen and risen again, in other words for one who has
>eaten the bread of bitterness, who has become softened and strengthened
by
>it, that there is for one who has never passed through the fire. So
>compassionate and pitiful is universal nature, that it is precisely those
>who stumble on the path who are often in the end the richer. Holiness
>comes from the struggles with self
> fought and lost, and fought and lost, and fought and Won. And then
>compassion enters the heart, and pity, and understanding. We become
gentle
>with others. Wind of the Spirit, G de Purucker.
>
>Cheers
>Cass
>
>carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
>Cass,
>
>
>Thanks.
>
>Yes, HPB said Socrates was "not initiated" -- but not initiated in what?
>
>It is clear: he was not initiated in the conventional, Western, physical
>plane Mysteries of his own time and society. Physical level,
conventional
>initiation means affiliation and often dependence.
>
>Julian, who WAS initiated in the Mysteries as HPB informs, writes (in
his
>Oration VII) that Socrates of Athens, like Diogenes, the Cynic, DID NOT
>NEED to be initiated because they both had "direct sources" so to say.
>
>In saying this, Julian was only anticipating his own fate, in a way, as
he
>also died for "revealing too much", as HPB writes ( BCW, volume XIV).
She
>compares Julian and Socrates with a favourable view of both of them.
>
>Socrates was ABOVE the Mysteries of his time, then. His link was inner.
>
>I should bring more evidences, and references, about this issue, here.
>
>Many theosophists use to get too enthusiastic with Plato and there is,
to
>my view, a misunderstanding of HPB's real position with regard to
Socrates,
>as if she thought he was "beneath initiation". She did not. We must not
>idealize the Greek Mysteries too much. As a corporation, it had great
>limitations, of which Socrates was free.
>
>Philosophy, with its free thought, goes far beyond myths and mystery
>corporations/organizations.
>Yet as it explains myths and reveal them, it gets into dangerous waters
for
>ortodoxy.
>
>
>So does Theosophy. HPB had much in common with Socrates, with Julian --
and
>even something in common with Diogenes, the Cynic, too. She, too, was
>accused of "talking too much" -- ask Subba Row about that...
>
>
>Regards, Carlos.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE
> >Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:31:05 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Hello Carlos
> >I read this a little differently in that HPB is suggesting that
Socrates
> >was not initiated, but new the path to initiation came by knowing
>thyself.
> >Self, whether divine or human. So perhaps she is suggesting that the
>first
> >stage is to know our human self, in truth and without judgement before
>the
> >heavenly man will manifest?
> >Cass
> >
> >if otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to
his
> >fellow-men, the noble injuction, ‘O man, know thyself’’, he
>succeeded
> >in
> >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> >
> >Cass
> >
> >
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> >
> >oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >
> >THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE -- WHERE IS IT?
> >
> >ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >
> >
> >Dear Friends,
> >
> >
> >Outer, physical Temples can be seen, at best, as metaphors for,
> >or projections of, the temple or divine presence in our own
>consciousness.
> >
> >Referring to the old Socrates of Athens, , H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
> >
> >
> >�From the days of the primitive man described by the first Vedic
poet,
> >down
> >to our modern poet, there has not been a philosopher worthy of that
name,
> >who did not carry in the silent sanctuary of his heart the grand and
> >mysterious truth. If initiated, he learnt it as a sacred science; if
> >otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to his
> >fellow-men, the noble injuction, �O man, know thyself��, he
>succeeded
> >in
> >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> >
> >The esoteric movement is only a stimulating and testing common ground
for
> >that inner recognition.
> >
> >Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> >
> >
> >
> >NOTE:
> >(1) �Isis Unveiled�, by H. P. Blavatsky, Theosophical University
>Press,
> >Pasadena, California, USA, 1988, two volumes, see volume II, p. 318.
> >Reproduced by H.P. Blavatsky in �Collected Writing�, TPH Wheaton,
> >volume
> >XIV, 1985, 733 pp., see p. 48.
> >
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