RE: Theos-World failure of moral leadership does not exonerate the "followers
Mar 31, 2006 07:49 AM
by W.Dallas TenBroeck
Thanks and please excuse YELLOW notes below (short of time)
Dallas
==========================================
-----Original Message-----
From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:42 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cc: AA-BNStudy
Subject: Re: Theos-World failure of moral leadership does not exonerate the
"followers
Dear Dallas,
>As far as I can see, the failure of moral leadership does not exonerate the
>"followers."
>
Agreed.
>Each individual weaves his or her own Karma. This is the universal law.
>
Yes, but as your statement above implies, there is also family, tribal
and/or group karma. Therefore the whole family, tribe etc. suffers or
benefits from the acts of its individuals.
DTB Many individuals' karma interact to form those - a blending trend as
of a race and their epochal history
>"Passing the blame" appears to be in conflict with loyalty and discipline.
>
If by loyalty, you mean blind loyality i.e. "my country right or wrong",
then I agree. On the other hand, I believe that it is the duty of
members of a community, country, tribe, organization, family etc. to
speak out (whenever possible) when a wrong is done. Such an action is
still one of loyalty, but not blind loyalty. Such people are often said
to represent the "loyal opposition."
DTB If one pledges loyalty then any deviation is a lie to the original
pledge. I don't find that excusable. If there is a danger of this kind of
situation it is better not to pledge. If the group is not living up to the
mark of excellence chosen, then as you say it is our duty to protest and
refuse to perjure our HUMANITY.
But are we not all in this situation? Is this to why the Masers call our
"humanity" a "great orphan?"
>I think the problem really is: ARE WE LOYAL TO IDEALS ? TO VIRTUES?
>
precisely.
>In practical business life, I have always found that the public exposure of
>a "wrong" (after due notice to the obstructionist) brings redress based on
>the unflinching logic of the moral and virtuous situation involved. If we
>are silent and inactive, then we advertise the obstructionist, that we are
>actively participating in perpetuating the wrong being done, or a failure
in
>this performance of honest work, and the application of impartial
>discipline.
>
Ideally, that is how it should work. How fortunate you are to have only
experienced such healthy organizations--as opposed to unhealthy ones
life this country's Roman Catholic church which worked to hide and
protect sexual preditors in their our clergy.
>If an individual who takes high (or low) responsible office, fails in
>rigidly applying morals and virtues, is it our duty to challenge and draw
>attention to the lapse for the greater good of all concerned? ARE WE
>RESPONSIBLE TO A PERSON, OR TO AN "OFFICE ?"
>
Precisely
>I would say in such cases, THEOSOPHY looking at such a debate between
>Kama-Manas and BUDDHI-Manas, indicates the superior position assumable by
>impartiality and universality.
>
Universality. "superior position" and "impartiality" contradict in this
case. Addressing the process as opposed to the person is often the best
tact.
DTB It is the "tact" that seems hypocritical to me. Everything works
out easier if we refuse to deal with the false and the untrue. Better cut
the relationship as soon as possible. Then I might add: Attach no person
as such. Attach the injustice of the "system" and the application being
made to degrade it -- which some individuals do, unfortunately.
Best,
Jerry
>-----Original Message-----
>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Jerry Hejka-Ekins
>Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:51 PM
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the
>Bible
>
>Dear Vince,
>
>
>
>>And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
>>Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still been
>>subsequently successful today?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to the
>leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the victims.
>IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to publish and
>keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
>
>
>
>>What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society today?
>>
>>
>>
>They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters. They
>publish some important classics. I like many of its members.
>
>
>
>>I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
>>centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
>>operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
>>highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
>>
>>
>>
>Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires money to
>operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations, like
>United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing money.
>With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
>multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of politics.
>On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far away from
>the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
>representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit educational
>organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4 hours. The
>treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time we talk
>about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather than talking
>about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services. No one on
>the Board, or connected in any way with the organization receives a
>salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a predetermined
>amount of their own money to the organization. However, volunteers are
>reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time. What I
>am saying is that it is quite possible for non profit organizations to
>be primarily focused on service--not getting money. They do not have to
>be "money centered". We have proved that.
>
>
>
>>I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
>>organizations are first and foremost out to make money.
>>
>>
>>
>Not ours.
>
>
>
>>Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
>>
>>
>>
>Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and some don't.
>
>
>
>>They may meet spiritual
>>and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
>>central and donations are key.
>>
>>
>>
>Not in our case. Service is key.
>
>
>
>>I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we currently
>>retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
>>retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could qualitatively
>>ingest in a lifetime.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?
>
>
>
>>I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
>>were very much intended as historical texts, even if
>>evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail for
>>accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical methods
>>of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not as
>>precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
>>documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
>>
>>
>>
>I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading the
>works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing my own
>research on the subject.
>
>
>
>>I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
>>Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
>>exist together.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>What parts do you find historical? What parts do you find "mythical"?
>What parts do you find evangelical?
>
>
>
>
>
>>These historical difficulties do not eliminate the fact that the
>>gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
>>you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical accuracy
>>by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never occurred.
>
>
>
>>Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm not
>>certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>"Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that bypasses
>the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of perception
>that does not involve the mind.
>
>
>
>>, but I
>>nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained without
>>first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
>>cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
>>darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
>>(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
>>
>>
>>
>Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
>psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used to work
>in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance to
>observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
>telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God etc.
>Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of things
>that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
>
>
>
>>This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
>>into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or when
>>he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his earthly
>>ministry.
>>
>>
>>
>Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical or...?
>
>
>
>
>>If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
>>cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-spirituality
>>as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the lower
>>psychic centers of our subconscious.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
>psychic centers of our unconscious"?
>
>Best
>Jerry
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