Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01113)

Carlos-

Thank you again.

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Vince,
> 
> I would suggest reading "The Key to Theosophy", by HPB.
> 
> 
> Regards, Carlos.
> 
> 
> >From: "Vincent" <vblaz2004@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Theos-World Re: Hi there, I'm Vince and I am new to the 
group
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 19:15:36 -0000
> >
> >Steve-
> >
> >Who specifically are the 'masters' and are they ethical?
> >The 'masters' that I've found in written texts mostly go back to 
the
> >Bible.  I'm speaking of miracle workers such as Jesus, Moses and
> >Elijah, Peter and Paul.  Some of these are reported as having 
raised
> >the dead or ascending itno heaven themselves.  Metaphysical 
masters.
> >
> >But were these masters completely ethical?  The miracles of Moses
> >were mostly of a destructive nature, bringing ten plagues on the
> >Egyptians, and perhaps ten more on his own Israelites.  Further, 
he
> >and his immediate succussor Joshua were propagators of genocide,
> >exterminating six nationalities from the face of the earth.  And 
the
> >very angels of heaven which backed him, according to biblical
> >testimony, were also quite violent and genocidal.
> >
> >Likewise Elijah, who reportedly ascended directly into heaven,
> >bypassing physical death, also slew people with supernatural fire
> >from the sky.  Despite resurrecting a dead boy, according to the
> >scriptures.
> >
> >Peter and Paul of the New Testament are also biblically recorded 
as
> >each having resurrected the dead, and yet enforced harsh cultural
> >legalisms on women in their day.
> >
> >What precisely is a 'master' and are 'masters' ethical?
> >
> >-
> >
> >It may even be asserted that the gods of ancient mythology may
> >actually have been immortal beings that once walked the earth 
prior
> >to recorded history as we have it today.  But did these
> >ancient 'gods' also practice good ethics?  Or were some of them
> >bloody and violent as well?
> >
> >-
> >
> >Now I suppose that there are different types of mastery available
> >within the human potential, each with their own jurisdictional
> >spheres.  One is a master of accounting, another a master at 
sales,
> >another a master of corporate management, another a master of
> >artistry, literature or dance.  Still others are masters of ethics
> >but not wisdom, psychic mastery but not physical athleticism.
> >Whatever it may be.
> >
> >So again I ask: what precisely is a 'master'?  And a master of 
what?
> >
> >Vince
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey <sallev1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Vince
> > >        When you mention "wholistic" regarding the fact the TS
> >includes other works besides HPBs, you raise an interesting point.
> > >       I was originally involved with the TS years ago, and I 
felt
> >as if I had found a mother-lode of metaphysical occult literature.
> >and this is true. Over the years, however, I found my own tastes
> >changing from an open texture rather undisciplined sense of study 
to
> >a "way" of my own, and I began to eliminate texts which, to me,
> >where too indirect regarding the Path of individual work. I wanted
> >to know what I needed to actually do to know Wisdom, which wisdom
> >was really neccesary for my own "awakening", and most importantly-
> >what are the Masters of Wisdom. I found that some texts were
> >concerned with the fundemental teachings of the ancient wisdom,
> >without concern for the author, just the learning of the student. 
I
> >found that many were not and made claims of visions and knowledge,
> >which seemed to me, to jump ahead of what I could verify as real.
> >So, I kept finding myself going back to the fundemental teachings
> >regarding the neccesary changes I had to make in me, with which I
> >would know
> > >  what is real and what is not. My biggest problem was always me
> >and my  lack of patience. I needed to rid myself of the so-called
> >normal time sense of people in our time, which prompts us to 
quickly
> >and prematurely aquire powers before we understand what power is. 
I
> >kept finding that some few texts want the student to find out 
what a
> >human being is, the knowledge of which I thought I had, being
> >preumptious and shallow. Which really means, that for a shallow
> >nature to aquire power would be dangerous.
> > >        Therefore, I kept finding myself being attracted back to
> >HPB's writings, along with Patanjali, the Dalai Lama, and other
> >insightful Buddhist thinkers like Santideva, who deal in ethical
> >growth along side, but actually preceding, the metaphysical study,
> >for the sake of psychological balance. Their motive is service as
> >the key to finding out who you are and your capacities, while an
> >unbalanced study may still allow for selfishness, and misuse of
> >knowledge.
> > >        Well, thats the Path of study for me, but it came about
> >through an open study of pretty much everything.
> > >
> > >   Steve
> > >
> > > Vincent <vblaz2004@> wrote:
> > >   Steve-
> > >
> > > Actually, my primary intent for recently getting involved with 
the
> > > Theosophical Society of Wheaton has mostly to do with having a
> >place
> > > wherein I may freely believe what I already do, and learn new
> >things
> > > of a metaphysical content as well.
> > >
> > > When I was formerly involved with Christian fundamentalist
> >churches,
> > > I found myself judged and restricted whenever attempting to 
bring
> >up
> > > metaphysical concepts in open discussion format. I was told 
that I
> > > was not being 'doctrinal', and that my metaphysical experiences
> > > were 'demonic', insofar as they were not strictly aligned with
> > > Christian doctrine.
> > >
> > > However, my initial impression of the Theosophical Society is 
that
> > > it is accepting of a variety of religious traditions, and not
> >solely
> > > specific to HPB's writings. It is more wholistic. Please 
correct
> > > me if I am wrong on this.
> > >
> > > Vince
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ah Vince, that's a mighty deep rational you have for what you
> >do.
> > > Hopefully you will get from us exactly what you aught.
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Vincent wrote:
> > > > Steve-
> > > >
> > > > I appreciate your insight and your suggestion, and I see the
> >value
> > > > to it. It's just that at this specific time in my life, my 
focus
> > > > must be a little bit different. In other words, I've already
> > > poured
> > > > many thousands of hours into various metaphysical texts over 
the
> > > > last twenty years, and have therefore arrived at a very 
complex
> > > and
> > > > advanced metaphysical belief system as a result. At this 
time, I
> > > am
> > > > undertaking the attempt to write a volume as large as HPB's, 
and
> > > > therefore cannot dedicate fully researching a brand new text.
> > > >
> > > > I suggest that there exist the roles of teachers whose 
specific
> > > task
> > > > is to dispense information to others, if they do not have the
> > > > immediate time and energy to gather it for themselves. I'm 
not
> > > > saying that direct readings of HPB lack value in any way. 
That's
> > > > just not where I'm at right now.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, I engage in trance conditioning through natural
> > > > physiological disciplines, without the use of chemical
> >modifiers.
> > > > This means that I interact directly with spirit entities, 
seeing
> > > > them and hearing them when I enter into trance. And this is 
the
> > > > level from whence my writings will manifest inspiration. I am
> >just
> > > > curious to see what degree of alignment exists between HPB's
> > > > writings and my own belief system at this time, so I'd like 
to
> > > learn
> > > > more through those gifted teachers and students of HPB.
> > > >
> > > > Vince
> > > >
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Vince
> > > > >
> > > > > I am aware of how daunting the very thickness of these
> > > > texts can appear, but I really think that you are doing 
yourself
> >a
> > > > great disservice, by not doing the study yourself, and 
expecting
> > > > others to, sort of, hand it to you in some palatable form
> >intended
> > > > just for you. This is a great deal like going to church or
> >temple
> > > > and expecting the paid servent on the pulpit to do the same
> >thing.
> > > > > Now please, don't take this wrong, but an important aspect
> > > > of the philosophy of becoming a discriminating human being 
and
> > > > student, is, so that what you find for yourself will be
> >something
> > > > you can trust in. "We are all Gods", says the ancient wisdom,
> > > > or "You too can do what I have done" as Jesus says. In other
> > > words,
> > > > we have what we need within us, we just have to flesh it out.
> >That
> > > > is the purpose of theosophical thought, not the memorization 
of
> > > > thick texts. But the study of them, and application of what 
we
> >see
> > > > as true, brings rewards immediately, as the mind wakes up to 
its
> > > own
> > > > powers of wisdom and discrimination.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Vincent wrote:
> > > > > Steve-
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm just trying to understand what I can about Theosophy,
> > > insofar
> > > > as
> > > > > it is new to me. HPB's writings are so extensive in such 
large
> > > > > volumes that I'm honestly a little bit daunted as to where 
to
> > > > begin,
> > > > > so I'm likely going to be relying on secondary abridgments 
for
> > > > > awhile. In other words, someone's probably going to have to
> > > teach
> > > > > it to me in the form of abridged quotes, before I get into
> > > > extensive
> > > > > reading of the core volumes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Christians claim that the Bible contains 'absolute truth',
> >both
> > > > > inerrant and infallible. But this then leaves those 
portions
> >of
> > > > > universal truth concerning which we lack a firm and total
> >grasp.
> > > > > Namely 'occult' truth, or anything which has not been 
declared
> > > to
> > > > > be 'absolute truth' by the Christian community. Hence
> >universal
> > > > > truth may potentially be subdivided into categories
> >of 'absolute
> > > > > truth' and 'occult truth'. Of course, I don't believe that 
any
> > > of
> > > > > us really has a firm grasp on 'absolute truth' in the first
> > > place,
> > > > > insofar as our minds are mortal, and we commonly have 
errors
> > > > > somewhere in every belief that we hold, whether small or
> >great.
> > > > > Hence so many different biblical interpretations among
> > > Christians.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Steven Levey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vince-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your intution about the reason for the term "Secret" in 
The
> > > > > Secret Doctrine is somewhat correct, but, it is also a bit 
to
> > > > quick
> > > > > a judgement. I'm afraid you are going to have to study the
> > > thing,
> > > > to
> > > > > get a really good idea about the use of her terms. 
However, in
> > > > doing
> > > > > so, I found it wise to read HPB in a thorough way to begin 
to
> > > > > undestand her motivation. By this I mean, read The Key to
> > > > Theosophy,
> > > > > and study The Voice of the Silence, as well, or something 
like
> > > > that.
> > > > > Or, pick up one of her collected writtings of shorter
> >articles,
> > > or
> > > > > the Panarion. Mostly all of these are available at the 
Public
> > > > > Library, but definately on-line or in Theosophy Lodges of
> > > > different
> > > > > types.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good Searching-Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vincent Blazina wrote:
> > > > > > Perry:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the welcome. The Jehovah's Witnesses that you
> >refer
> > > > > also seem to have some narrow biblical interpretations, 
much
> > > like
> > > > > Christian fundamentalists. I'm curious about what some of 
the
> > > > > similarities and differences are between the Bible and the
> > > Secret
> > > > > Doctrine. Why is the Secret Doctrine considered to be 
secret?
> > > Does
> > > > > this simply mean that it is occult (meaning hidden) in 
nature?
> > > My
> > > > > own biblical interpretations go very deep for me, and are
> > > anything
> > > > > but dry, although I view Christian fundamentalists as often
> > > > shallow
> > > > > in their own biblical interpretations much of the time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vince
> > > > > >
> > > > > > plcoles1
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Vince,
> > > > > > Welcome to theos-talk!
> > > > > > My background was in the Jehovah's Witnesses and so as a
> > > result
> > > > > had what amounted to at
> > > > > > least 5 1/2 hours a week of meetings to attend, and NO
> > > > questioning
> > > > > what you were being
> > > > > > told.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The thing I've found with studying theosophy for someone 
who
> > > has
> > > > > studied the Bible is
> > > > > > that theosophy and in particular the Secret Doctrine 
opens
> >up
> > > > many
> > > > > interesting and
> > > > > > profound interpretations of passages in the Bible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An interesting article written by H.P Blavatsky is `The
> > > Esoteric
> > > > > character of the Gospels'
> > > > > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-eso2.htm
> > > > > > It's a good place to start as the Secret Doctrine can be 
a
> > > > little
> > > > > bit daunting to begin with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After only hearing what was to me very empty and dry
> > > > > interpretations of the Bible,
> > > > > > theosophy can help you to begin to get some kind of
> > > > understanding
> > > > > as to the deeper
> > > > > > meaning in the bible as well as what other great 
thinkers,
> > > sages
> > > > > and philosophers from
> > > > > > various traditions have taught on these subjects which 
may
> > > help
> > > > > you have some context
> > > > > > and reference point for your own experiences.
> > > > > > Very Best Wishes on your Spiritual journey and once again
> > > > Welcome
> > > > > to the theos-talk!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perry
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "vblaz20042004" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi there, I'm Vince and I am new to the group. I have
> > > recently
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > attending the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, Illinois
> >for
> > > > the
> > > > > past
> > > > > > > month, and have been enjoying the various teachings and
> > > > > discussions
> > > > > > > at that facility.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My life has been rich with metaphysical experiences, 
but
> >the
> > > > > > > Christian Fundamentalist churches that I had previously
> > > > attended
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > twenty years got very judgmental towards me when I 
might
> > > > venture
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > reference them. I also began finding many 
inconsistencies
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > way that many Christians were representing the Bible, 
and
> >my
> > > > > > > questions about Christianity were often deemed 
dangerous
> >to
> > > > > people's
> > > > > > > religious faith.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am looking for a place in the Theosophical Society
> >wherein
> > > I
> > > > > may
> > > > > > > potentially freely discuss metaphysical issues as they
> > > > directly
> > > > > > > pertain to my life, with people who are more open to 
such
> > > > > > > discussions. I am very well read with the Bible, 
although
> >my
> > > > > > > interpretations of it are more metaphysical versus
> >orthodox.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I look forward to constuctive discussion with the 
people
> > > here,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > would like to learn more about the Theosophical Society
> >and
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > perspectives, insofar as many of them are brand new to 
me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vince
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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