Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00395)

Ah Stevie, is it Billie? Cool. My intention was to give a little distance here, but you are so quick on the trigger.
     When I said that the Masters were perfect, I said; as far as we are concerned. There is a difference. When they explain how they think of themselves it is to diffuse any sense of worship. HPB and them have made it clear how we can see ourselves in relation to them, and how perfectability is a normal part of human nature. But as far as you are concerned?..................I don't know. Lighten up Bill, it'll do you and us some good.
     Theosophy, as it was meant, hasn't much to do with pettiness, so I won't go there.
     My post was clear, think and say what you will.
   
  Steve

Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@earthlink.net> wrote:
  Stevie,

Interesting that you read my parody of Carlos' post, idea for idea, 
language for language, tone for tone, as somehow representing that I am 
angry. Perhaps you missed the point? Or perhaps Carlos is angry and I 
simply reflected that. If you would print my post and Carlos' post and 
lay them along side each other, I think you would see that all I did 
was hold a mirror up to Carlos so that he might see just how he looked.

Thank you for confirming your belief that HPB's Masters are held to be 
Perfect despite the fact that they deny this themselves. It is a bit 
of creative thinking but, I do not have an issue with anyone's beliefs 
so long as they do not try to force them upon me by implying that my 
methodology or my sincerity is lacking. Next you will say that I cannot 
possibly be a sincere student of theosophy unless I believe as you do.

As to HPB's corpse, a careful reading might reveal that her corpse was 
used as a metaphor for her body of writings. She did not burn her books.

peace,


bill




Steven Levey wrote:
> Bill-
> Disagreement is one thing, but why are you so angry? 
> If you are looking for a reason for Carlos's vehemence regarding CWL, it is the history of CWL's perverted behavior and teaching, which was somehow condoned by his cronies, and the terrible miscoloration of Theosophy because of it. And yes, it appears as if Carlos was a follower, but when the lights come on, and one sees where they are and who they supported, perhaps the gloves come off. Especially when the mess is as obvious as that which was made and perpetrated in that time by Adyar. I would agree that we are indeed "kicking a dead horse" if it were not the case that the "dead horse" is still with us.
> Regarding HPB, no where in his writings has Carlos, or anyone else on this site made HPB out to be perfect; her teachers---as far as we are concerned-YES. And as much as her "decaying corpse" is concerned, it was burned so that it couldn't rot, and she who inhabited it is far more potent now then she was then, being no longer inhibited by that body. 
> Take care Bill and cool off will you, it does you nor anyone else any good to have you blow off like this.
> 
> Steve
>
> Bill Meredith wrote:
> CARLOS, THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND SELF-DELUSION
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Carlos has been trying to explain HPB as a perfect person and to 
> describe the Masters as Perfect Men. To his mind there are no 
> metaphysical or spiritual mysteries left to be solved since HPB and the 
> Masters have already solved them each and every one.
>
> It is a question then of who we will worship. Carlos promotes the 
> fundamentalist view of theosophy that all but claims perfection for its 
> founder and her muses. He does not recognize any facts except those 
> that will support his final resting place in the arms of HPB. Oh Rock 
> of Ages, Cleft for me, Let me hide myself in thee!
>
> He does not perceive that a discussion and even an investigation of HPB 
> as a person with a history has any use within his theosophical 
> movement. In fact, if one were to look closely at Carlos's perception 
> of the theosophical movement one would see a stagnant cesspool of 
> century old ideas being guarded by a brigade of loyal and devoted 
> worshippers. The truth is that there is no movement in Carlos's 
> theosophy. It stands in its own stench and its modern day supporters 
> pretend they don't smell anything.
>
> For me, the fact that Carlos stays transfixed in a movement that is 
> without motion is itself a subject for some self-examination.
>
> For me, and I do not presume to speak for thousands of others, theosophy 
> is not limited to that which is taught by HPB and her Masters. In fact, 
> theosophy is something which is alive. And because it is alive, it is in 
> motion. It is experiential. It is of the timeless and can not be 
> limited to one person's expositions no matter how time appropriate those 
> expositions were. HPB is dead. The sooner we take our eyes off her 
> decaying corpse and put our focus back on the Divine Wisdom that 
> precedes and succeeds her, the quicker we will put motion back into the 
> movement. It is true that while there are some like Carlos, who mistake 
> running around in circles screaming, "the sky is falling" with 
> meaningful movement, there are some of us who know that such activity 
> has stalled the movement in its tracks and many are the seekers who have 
> abandoned the TS for this reason: It is not moving anywhere.
>
> And just because Carlos cannot "see" that Divine Wisdom swallows HPB and 
> all her writings like a whale swallows water, he has to say that HPB's 
> theosophy is true and divine alone and in and of itself. And other 
> dogmatic, arm-chair reposing, book reading theosophists find his ideas 
> comforting, possibly because these ideas offer them an escape from the 
> challenge of living theosophy as motion in their own daily lives.
>
> If Carlos would investigate Leadbeater in the light of Divine Wisdom he 
> would see that there is no fraud, only a different man's attempt to 
> express the inexpressible motion. Yet, Carlos who once followed 
> Leadbeater, has quit him for what he now thinks is a better leader. 
> Like a cigarette smoker who has finally quit, Carlos finds great 
> substitute pleasure in hating and bashing those whom he now finds 
> disgusting because they did not change their filthy habits at the very 
> moment he did. 
>
> The notion of a steep and narrow path will lead you straight to hell 
> Carlos. There is nothing special about you, or your theosophical 
> friends, or HPB, or any of the Masters to whom you are devoted. All is 
> as it should be. You are a small bug splattered on the windshield of 
> the universe and God will not notice you no matter how much you flap 
> your broken wings and yawp about the importance of you and your 
> thousands of friends around the world.
>
> Carlos is like the Roman Catholic Clergy who try to keep themselves 
> firmly in control of the flock.
> For such people there are no real people, nothing internal, subjective, 
> human. It's only the worship of the Pope that matters and the issue of 
> real people with real names and real thoughts is dismissed as 
> scholarship and heresy to the movement.
>
> There are great souls all around us. Many will not see them because 
> their focus is on the dead carcass of HPB. She will not rise again. 
> Get over it. To worship her is to take theosophy down the same road 
> as those who worship the Pope today. 
>
> The problem, Carlos, is that you lack an understanding of what 
> constitutes sincerity. You have convinced yourself that any debating 
> point that is not in accordance with your understanding is,of course, 
> not sincere and can therefore be dismissed out of hand. You just keep 
> telling yourself that if the other person were really sincere they would 
> have already quit smoking too.
>
>
>
>
> peace,
>
> bill
> 
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